Coming to the East 40s: Ground Zero North

1.

Oh my god!!!!! This is going to ruin Murray Hill!!!!!! I can't believe this is happening!

2.

as though the con-ed site had not already ruined murray hill? the park sounds magnificient. as long as it is large enough, it will be the greatest asset to murray hill since . . . ever.

3.

If they are going to build that much floor area, there should be no tax breaks. Instead, the taxes should be dedicated to extending the Time Square shuttle to a ferry terminal at the water and their site. Both their development, and ferry riders, would benefit from a fast trip to Grand Central and Times Square. As part of its original alignment, the shuttle ROW is already above the Lexington Avenue line at 41st Street.

4.

as though the con-ed site had not already ruined murray hill? the park sounds magnificient. as long as it is large enough, it will be the greatest asset to murray hill since . . . ever.

5.

as though the con-ed site had not already ruined murray hill? the park sounds magnificient. as long as it is large enough, it will be the greatest asset to murray hill since . . . ever.

6.

So if i buy a place in murray hill now will my property value go up after 5 years?? If so i need to tell my dad to help me out!

7.

I hope they can make a bike lane go along the river. Right now most uptown travel via bike is capped around 23rd/34th unless you take 1st ave, which will now be much busier. Ice rink would be nice, there used to
be a rink at the building on 34th and first but they filled it in for some reason. The steam was to be made for this project by the power plant built in Brooklyn. Which I think is dead or is moved.

8.

Brooke your property value will go up anywhere in five years -- the question is by how much.

9.

Would be interesting if this gets built sooner than the Freedom Tower complex. Meier condos could be more viable economically than office space downtown.

10.

Yeah the reason they "filled in" the ice skating rink at 34th St is that no one ever used it. What makes anyone think this one is going to be more successful?

11.

Babs - i heard places in hells kitchen are sky rocketing - should i look at that neighborhood instead?

12.

Brooke -- Prices have been going up everywhere, as you know. Just about everywhere in Manhattan has seen tremendous growth over the past five years, but where this growth is most likely to continue the fastest is really uncertain -- you could ask ten people and get ten answers. The first question to ask would be, "Where do you want to live?" (I assume you would be living there). No matter how much appreciation potential your property has if you hate your neighborhood it's not worth it.

13.

I love Murray Hill and Gramercy for sure! but i heard the most potential is Hell's Kitchen! Im actually looking for places in Murray Hill right now. (I am renting on 32nd and 2nd at the moment)

14.

Any affordable housing being built there? Oh- right, affordable, I guess they will have studio apts priced at $1 million- jerks.

15.

G - I checked the prices - there is NO WAY Studios are priced at 1 million! that is impossible. Studios in Murray Hill are only 350's! that is very cheap compared to other places!

16.

There's a lot of new construction in Hell's Kitchen but most of the older housing stock is walkup buildings, etc. Yes, it's cheaper than MH/Gramercy now so there is more room for growth, but it won't ever be the same neighborhood. If you're really serious about buying something, your first step should be to talk to a real estate broker -- buyers (unlike renters) don't pay anything for this in most cases -- the seller pays.

17.

Babs - where do you live around? We should totally discuss this over some drinks *wink* hehe

18.

Sorry, Brooke, thanks for the thought but I never mix alcohol with real estate. I hate waking up in co-ops I don't remember buying!

19.

Babsy! i was kidding! as a 22 year old female, i would rather have drinks with another woman to talk about real estate than skeevy men!

20.

No bikeway, the development doesn't cross the FDR. The park is inland at 1st Ave and has tall buildings all around it, including between the park and the river. It's not planned to be a 'public' park, just 'open' to the public.

The Tudor city people are upset about the shadows cast on the Tudor city greens. The potential greenway from St Vartan's to the river is going to house TWO towers.

There are huge tax breaks through the NYS-EPA brownfield clean-up program and Con Ed (up to 40% of developemnt costs) but no public transportation, ferry connections, or schools.

The Environmental Impact Statement said that the Midtown tunnel congestion was already 'unmitigable' so no analysis of this development's impact was included.

They'll probably participate in the 80/20 program for affordable housing in order to get more FAR, but you need to make below the median income to qualify t be on the waiting list for an apartment. Which leaves out the middle class residents of Murray Hill.

But they probably wouldn't like to live in a Meier box anyway. The conceptual model presents as a sterile and antiseptic insular world of it's own. Cold as the proposed ice skating rink and significantly taller than Trumps UN building.

Definitely buy your place in MH. It's incredibly convenient, and it's transitioning into a cool place to live.

21.

that means there is no more view of the east river!!!!

22.

Dear Park Avenue -

About the affordable housing - you mean the projects right? That means there will be a lot of projects in Murray Hill.

Why should i spend my money on a place where it will be a projects heaven in 5 years??? Should i look at Upper East Side to avoid the problem?

23.

Brooke, don't worry -- affordable housing doesn't mean projects. And income guidelines for affordable housing units would be a joke anywhere but in NY -- the minimum income figures are very solidly middle class. And in a final twist, the affordable units don't even have to be in the same area as the market-rate units. Look on the LES -- Avalon Christie's affordable units are going up now, across Houston St/First Avenue from the market rate building.

And the city isn't building massive housing projects anymore -- it's pretty much universally acknowledged that packing a bunch of poor people on top of each other in isolation from everyone else creates more problems than it solves, however noble their builders' intentions may have been to start.

Probably the worst spots in the Murray Hill area now are the Kips Bay Houses (an old-style project) and those Mitchell-Lama buildings on Second Ave in the 20's, because of the methadone clinic there. That area can get a bit scary.

And as to moving to the UES -- again, where do you want to live? If you choose a neighborhood you love and really invest yourself in the community with your neighbors, you can help decide the future of your neighborhood in terms of what kind of housing, etc., is put up. And this applies to almost anywhere. However, an economically powerful area like Murray Hill is likely to have more influence on politicians than a poorer one like Inwood. The UES is an influential area as well, so it's up to you.

24.

Babs and Park Avenue - you are my guardian angels! This is exciting. I am currently living in Murray Hill and would like to buy a place with the help of my parents.

I recently graduated and working at an IB, but still awaiting for my bonus so i can settle down for the down payment! I am thinking Murray Hill or UES is the best bet as they are the most affordable. I definitely dont want to go to the 20's and 2nd. I really dont like that area and rather feel unsafe.

Although i am surprise that people considered Avalon Chrystie as affordable housing.....isn't that in the 600's to millions?

25.

Glad to help, Brooke. No, the market rate units at Avalon Christie certainly aren't affordable (and it's a rental building), but in order to be allowed to put up that block-long thing, the builders had to cut a deal similar to the one above -- 80% of the units would be market rate and 20% affordable. The catch was that they could be very different in terms of finishes and even location. So the market rate building went up first, and is already filling up, and ground has only recently been broken on the affordable portion. diagonally across Houston St.

Yeah, everybody in real estate is waiting on those Wall St bonuses, which are predicted to be pretty good this year, so we'll see.

26.

I just read on a website that they are going to build all these residential towers along the east river. Doesnt that hurt other buildings that used to have views of the east river? If i were to purchase a place in the 30's? oh well i guess you cant' have everything.....life is just unfair!

Babs- what do you do ?

27.

It really depends on how long this new construction has been in the works. Generally there's a lag of a year or more between approval of a project and actual construction, so current prices should already reflect the coming change to the properties' view. Anything announced subsequent to your purchase could, of course, affect potential appreciation.

Real estate is very much a caveat emptor game, and research is of utter importance when buying a place. You can rely somewhat your broker, and (especially) on your attorney, but your own research is also crucial.

Once you have an accepted offer on a place, the seller's lawyer starts drawing up the sales contract while yours begins due diligence on the building, including its financial and mechanical condition, any outstanding lawsuits or judgments, etc. It's also really important to look at the surrounding area and check out the zoning. If you're across the street from a block that's currently only built up to say ten stories but is zoned for 15, you may well be faced with some construction there eventually. Your attorney will also examine the minutes of previous co-op or condo board meetings, where issues of this sort will not doubt have come up.

Your broker should have a lot of this knowledge as well (or at least know how to get it), but ultimately this is your money we're talking about and your broker may also be handling things in other areas so can't know everything. That's where you come in -- the Times last Sunday had a pretty thorough article on researching properties, including a list of useful websites (most which are already linked to on Curbed): http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/realestate/06cover.html

As for what I do -- real estate (surprise!) :)

28.

wow babs - do you live around the murray hill / gramercy area?

although i am a little upset that the place i may eventually end up (murray hill/kips bay) will have a blocked view! again - no one can have it her way all the time - so i guess you win and lose some.

29.

I work in the area, but I actually live on the Lower East Side and in Brooklyn (I'm a little schizo). And even if a project has been approved that doesn't mean it's actually going to happen. Again, your lawyer would look into all that once you had made an accepted offer and you can also check it out yourself beforehand through sites like Property Shark in terms of knowing an area's zoning. The other thought is that most major structures take years to build -- you might buy something and be moved out before it was finished. And again, the price at which you bought it should have the eventual blocked view built in to it if it could be foreseen

30.

babs - we should totally meet up and have a ladies night! :)

31.

Babs- is there a way i can private message you? I need your help in my coop-condo search!!!

32.

Re: Babs and Brooke: Yes, you two should get a room already!
: )

33.

Mortimer - Babs is cool - and no there will be no girl on girl action! It will be a girls night out where we will wreak havoc on the bars! hehehehhe
seriously babs- how can i contact you for advice - i dont want to keep posting my comments on curbed.....

34.

Babs according to your comment: "The other thought is that most major structures take years to build -- you might buy something and be moved out before it was finished. And again, the price at which you bought it should have the eventual blocked view built in to it if it could be foreseen
"

so what if the buyer acknowledges that fact that the building will block it?

35.

Hey, Brooke, sorry to be so long in getting back to you. I honestly don't know how I would get my information to you and I agree it would be much better if we could meet in person. I also don't want anyone to get the idea that I come here to troll for business or anything like that -- quite the opposite, I enjoy the opinionated and sometimes snarky discussions that go on with no thought of commerce. So I'm a bit stumped here, too, being somewhat technologically challenged. If anyone else out there knows how to do this (or until Lock establishes private chat rooms -- no inappropriate punctuation, I promise!), suggestions are welcome.

Anyway, if you know a building's view is going to be blocked, it's up to you to consider how this should affect the price -- if you think the building is priced too high, make a lower offer or pass entirely. And if this information only comes out during due diligence, you can go back to the drawing board and renegotiate on the price or back out entirely -- remember, until you sign a contract you put no money down and aren't obligated in any way.

Thanks!

36.

Babs - I'm coming right for you for this comment-

"Probably the worst spots in the Murray Hill area now are the Kips Bay Houses (an old-style project) and those Mitchell-Lama buildings on Second Ave in the 20's, because of the methadone clinic there. That area can get a bit scary."

How dare you, you sad sorry woman. I've lived in the area of which you spoke of for over 10 years and their is nothing wrong with it. It is not the worst spot nor has it ever been. And for your information those Mitchell-Lama buildings are Mitchell-Lama no more. They pulled the buildings out of Section 8 to make room for all the new trust-fund kids serving their time at the NYU medical center.

You should be ashamed! That area is not scary at all and no one even notices the methadone clinic nor has there ever been an incident because of its presence. What about all those methadone clinics in the "fabulous" new Madison Square Park area? Is that area scary?

You should be very careful next time with how you describe a neighborhood. Your comments are elitist and somewhat prejudice since many of the individuals that live in the "worst spots" are African-American or Hispanic. The people who live in those buildings work hard to create a life for themselves and their children and the mere thought that where they live is considered beneath you and everyone else is tasteless.

The fact that you informed everyone that these buildings even existed implies there should be a sense of caution. Who would want to live near a housing project or a Section 8 building?! "Oh the horror! I'm living next to people who make minimum wage and can't afford somewhere better to live". Shameful, Babs. Just shameful!

Murray Hill deserves an apologize from you and I hope you're mature enough to give it.

37.

Manny, I said those were the worst spots in Murray Hill, and I stand by my statement -- meaning they're not bad at all, Murray Hill being overall a very nice area. And you're right about them taking away Section 8 grants for those places, but it's a gradual process -- the reason I know this complex so well is that a good friend of mine lives there, on Section 8, and she has been informed that she might have to start looking for a new place, but there's nothing definite yet.

And the (relative) scariness of that spot comes not from the Section 8 tenants at all, but from the clients of the methadone clinic. They all hang out by the deli on 2nd and 28th St and panhandle. I saw a woman selling drugs out of a baby stroller there.

And actually there are more methadone clinics in the Union Square area than Madison Square, and I think Union Sqaure has gotten rather seedy lately -- I walk through it every day to my office, so I'm very familiar with it.

But please Manny calm down -- nothing against Murray Hill, which is a very nice area. All I said was that those were probably the least desirable spots in an overall very desirable area, which doesn't make them too bad at all. And I would never want to imply anything against any particular group of people -- as I said I know those buildings so well becase a very good friend of mine lives there, on Section 8 (although she's white -- yes, white people can be poor, too!), and her neighbors are all very nice and dislike the methadone in their midst as much as anyone. Sorry if you took my comments out of context.

38.

The comments on the public housing in the East 20's being the worst part of the neighborhood, and the rationalization that no new projects will be built because they're bad for poor people ignores one question: where will the poor and low to middle income people go if they have to move? I called the city's "affordable housing" number last week and all it lists are condo's and in one case offers the chance to purchase renovated brownstones in Harlem at 800 and 900K respectively. For people earning in the range of $25K to $50 who do not have wealthy parents to pave the way, this housing will be out of reach. The condos and brownstones will go the top 5 percent of wage earners. Let's face it, the poor and low income people are being built out of Manhattan while the boroughs get more expensive too. Loft apartments in the South Bronx for $1,000 plus a month already exist, will they rent for $5,000 in five years or be selling in the six or seven figures? What will we lose? Cultural and ethnic diversity. Manhattan will eventually be an extension of suburbia with better restaurants. Where the poor will go is anyone's guess.

39.

Hey Babs-

I stand by Babs- I seriously think Babs should be my broker. I am looking for a 1 bedroom in Gramercy/Murray Hill ranging 450-600K. Please help thanks!

40.

"About the affordable housing - you mean the projects right? That means there will be a lot of projects in Murray Hill.

Why should i spend my money on a place where it will be a projects heaven in 5 years??? Should i look at Upper East Side to avoid the problem?"

Are you really this stupid?

41.

Dear Anonymous-

For your information - please be a little more polite. Those were legitimate questions.

42.

I think Babs has a lot of good advice here, but I would advise against asking your broker for advice about possible building projects or neighborhood disadvantages. My experience has been that you are better off researching possible pitfalls on your own! (Babs also listed several great options for this.) A broker is out to make a sale and it's not likely they will point out problems to you!

43.

Jon, when I said no new projects will be built I meant no new old-style projects -- ugly monoliths that isolate entire populations of people from the community -- they only breed misery and crime (most often project resident on project resident as well). New developments have been constructed, on a more humane scale (check out the Nehemiah program in Brooklyn -- HPD-subsidized, one, two, and three family homes sold through a lottery process to first-time buyers with incomes of $40K and up), and existing buildings have been converted to co-ops. But I agree that there is a crying need for affordable housing in this city (especially in Manhattan) and I don't know what the solution is, but old-style projects aren't it.

And Brooke's questions are legitimate -- it's her money and she needs to know as much as possible about the area where she's going to spend it. What she does with this information is her decision.

I believe someone earlier criticized me for "revealing" the existence of the Mitchell-Lama buildings on Second Ave. Are they supposed to be a dirty little secret or what? Again, I'm only passing along publicly-available information, and how a person uses that information is his or her own business.

44.

Jon, when I said no new projects will be built I meant no new old-style projects -- ugly monoliths that isolate entire populations of people from the community -- they only breed misery and crime (most often project resident on project resident as well). New developments have been constructed, on a more humane scale (check out the Nehemiah program in Brooklyn -- HPD-subsidized, one, two, and three family homes sold through a lottery process to first-time buyers with incomes of $40K and up), and existing buildings have been converted to co-ops. But I agree that there is a crying need for affordable housing in this city (especially in Manhattan) and I don't know what the solution is, but old-style projects aren't it.

And Brooke's questions are legitimate -- it's her money and she needs to know as much as possible about the area where she's going to spend it. What she does with this information is her decision.

I believe someone earlier criticized me for "revealing" the existence of the Mitchell-Lama buildings on Second Ave. Are they supposed to be a dirty little secret or what? Again, I'm only passing along publicly-available information, and how a person uses that information is his or her own business.

45.

Jon, when I said no new projects will be built I meant no new old-style projects -- ugly monoliths that isolate entire populations of people from the community -- they only breed misery and crime (most often project resident on project resident as well). New developments have been constructed, on a more humane scale (check out the Nehemiah program in Brooklyn -- HPD-subsidized, one, two, and three family homes sold through a lottery process to first-time buyers with incomes of $40K and up), and existing buildings have been converted to co-ops. But I agree that there is a crying need for affordable housing in this city (especially in Manhattan) and I don't know what the solution is, but old-style projects aren't it.

And Brooke's questions are legitimate -- it's her money and she needs to know as much as possible about the area where she's going to spend it. What she does with this information is her decision.

I believe someone earlier criticized me for "revealing" the existence of the Mitchell-Lama buildings on Second Ave. Are they supposed to be a dirty little secret or what? Again, I'm only passing along publicly-available information, and how a person uses that information is his or her own business.

46.

I was walking down on 2nd Ave and 27th on sunday and there is another housing project called: Nathan Strauss. It is next to the laundromat.

I am going to defend Babs in this thread. You go girl!

47.

Sorry the above came out three times -- my computer has server issues (whatever that means). Anyway demea has a good point -- your own research is always of greatest importance. However, I would like to mention the difference between a buyer's and seller's broker -- the seller's broker is out to sell that apartment to any qualified buyer. It is his or her fiduciary responsibility to the client to do so. This is why buying an apartment without using your own broker (the buyer's broker) is a dangerous proposition at best. A buyer's broker has a fiduciary responsibility to you, the buyer, to help you get the best possible apartment for you, considering your tastes, priorities, and finances. I have advised clients against buying certain properties for many reasons, just as I have urged them to consider others that they might not otherwise have looked at. Pushing someone to buy something just to make a quick buck (and it happens all the time, I know) is a short-term solution at best.

48.

Thanks Brooke!

49.

Again - to Babs -

YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!!!

50.

I hate to repeat myself but you're ignoring my question. If the city withdraws subsidies from housing developments, where will the poor people go? If you don't build subsidized rental buildings, you cut off the poor who have no assets. It's nice that some low income people have been able to move up and purchase houses but that doesn't help the masses. Let's face it, if you live in Manhattan and purchase an apartment, you don't want a low income project in your neighborhood. This didn't matter in the past when everyone rented, but it once you own something, the "NIMBY" effect kicks in. The owners will use their ecomonic clout politically, and the poor will end up somewhere else. "Out of sight, out of mind" and most likely in sub-standard, slumlord tye housing where they will be much worse off. As a Murray Hill resident with a parent in Stuyvesant Town who I visited often before she died, I can say I never had a problem with the people who lived in those projects in the 20s. And i walked through them on many occasions to take a short-cut through Peter Cooper Village.

51.

jon where are you on? I am on 32nd and 2nd. I think everyone from this thread should meet up for drinks on a thurs nite. How does the Joshua Tree sound?

52.

Quite right Jon -- the people who live in those places are for the most part honest, law-abiding citizens, just like most people everywhere, despite the fact that they live in less-than-wonderful surroundings. I still stand by my statement that this is the worst part of a very desirable neighborhood -- which is to say not too bad at all. And what exactly is your question -- what should the city do about affordable housing? If I could answer that one I'd be better than any of our wonderful elected officals. All I'm saying is the solution isn't to build massive structures that pack people on top of one another and isolate them from the rest of the community. And just about every neighborhood in Manhattan has at least one project, some rougher than others. This hasn't detered real estate prices from rising in every part of the city.

53.

You go girl!

With all the arguments set aside - I say we all should meet up for drinks on a thursday/friday night

Joshua Tree, Mercury, 515 at 6-7pm? Let's do it. It will be awesome for Curbed readers to get together!

54.

Post 52 was me -- sorry!

55.

In their later years, my grandmother and my great aunt and her husband lived in those "horrible projects on second ave. in the 20s." The apartments were quite nice and the balconies offered very attractive views. They had what I believe are called parquet wood floors. Sure the incomes were mixed, but no one seemed to bother anyone there. The Phipps Plaza Houses as they are known were originally built to provide housing for the employees of nearby "Hospital Row."

As for the Con Ed site, I used to walk my dog at Robert Moses Playground, which is slated to become a new U.N. tower. There used to be a homeless shantytown there too -- until a big U.N. summit in around 1996 or '97, I think, when someone apparently decided the homelessville would not be appropriate to have around anymore.

There are some cool metal tablets in the playground, near the FDR, showing all the bridges and other projects Moses built.

I like the neighborhood how it is now. Already since I've lived here, an Arab deli has become a wine shop, while a pizza place became a tanning salon. Meanwhile a Spanish restaurant (that admittedly used to be a hooker dispatching center at night) is now an upscale cafe. I don't have much use for a tanning salon -- or the people that use them, either, come to think of it.

I hope this neighborhood stays relatively affordable, and doesn't become the next "hot area," which would mean it would no longer be affordable.

Lincoln