Ask Curbed: Square Footage SizeChopping

1.

To the horror of several brokers, I arrived with measuring tape in hand when I was shopping. I always re-calculated on the spot and confronted brokers when they were substantially off (and yes I was generous by including exterior wall dimensions, closets, pipe runs, etc.). One broker actually used the excuse that she thought all co-ops had one share per sq.ft. Since the unit had 650 shares, it must be 650 sq.ft. providing a 30% bonus over the actual measurement of 500.

2.

Sigh - why is this such a problem?
There is always a broker BS factor except in new condo construction where the real sqft has to be stated in the offering plan.
That broker BS factor is remarkably consistent across all sizes of apts. For example, most studios are 400 broker BS sqft when they are really less than 300 real sqft. Most 1BRs are 600-700 broker BS sqft when they are really only 400-500 real sqft. etc. etc.

I once spent way too much time in the past arguing this point with someone who didn't get it here:
http://forums.newyork.craigslist.org/?ID=24027222

3.

A reader emails: "I don’t have an example for you, but SOP (standard operating procedure insert catchy witty phrase here – i.e. what developers marketers and architects do when talking about SSF – sellable square footage) is to measure to the outside wall of the building on exterior facades and to the centerline of walls on the interior, using the outside box of the apartment. In a gentler age I believe (but don’t quote me) that all measurements used in selling were to the inside walls and let’s call it “faux space” i.e. mechanical rooms, etc, were excluded … not now : if they are inside the “box” they are all yours. That being said, lots of folks push this shit! My advice to buyers – which I can’t follow – is to look at the usable space and the price and decide if the value is right for you (shit, I said value talking about RE in 2005). If you focus on the PSF number you’ll lose sight of the trees for the leaves, or is it the other way?"

4.

When I was looking at apartments to buy, I regularly found inflated sizes. The co-op shares are misleading, because they may also include a portion of the common space of the building, which is nice, but won't give you more room for your sofa.

One broker told me that she doesn't even use square footage, because it's such a bogus number.

5.

Actually, the correct methodology to measure coops and condos is using the interior perimeter methodology adopted by Fannie Mae for mortgage appraisals and gross building area for buildings. The interior perimeter method is from inside wall to inside wall, including all interior walls, closets halls and baths. It excludes all common areas. In gross building area measurements, the exterior dimensions are used that are above grade including the extensions. However, an English Basement (a few steps below grade) can be included if it has the same level of finishes as the remainder of the house and opens in full to the rear yard. We often find broker measurements about 10% above appraisers so that could be because of training. However, I don't think the problem is the broker's measuring technique. I think the issue is relying on the seller's word and not measuring it. The only way PSF can be reliable if the sources used to calculated are consistent as well.

6.

Writing from outside of NYC so I might need to buy a clue from Pat Sajak, but is there no relationship between the current city property taxes assesed and the square footage of the unit from the "studs" in?

7.

People should require signed statements. You can require those involved in transactions to certify to the accuracy of square footage. If the numbers turn out to be fudged you can sue them for big damages.

8.

to Roy Cohen:

if you are buying an apartment, you BETTER have an idea of what the square footage you are interested in looks like! Im a broker, and while I will quote a square footage, I would like my client to have an idea of what to expect for their price range, apartment type, etc. Renting is one thing, but when buying a property, knowledge is golden :) .

9.

goljerp - a "broker told me that she doesn't even use square footage, because it's such a bogus number" ??????? doesn't anyone have a rug ??? I guess keep chanting "square footage doesn't matter" as they lay your 16 x 24 Oriental in your 12 x 18 livingroom.....

10.

The Real Deal did a really interesting article on this a while back.
In real estate you have something known as the "loss factor." In commercial real estate the loss factor can by 40% of the actual property you are renting. The smaller the property the higher is the loss factor.

We leased our office space through CBRE and they told us the space was 1,200 sf, but when we had a designer come in to measure the space it was actually a bit larger than 800 sf. When we contacted the attorney to find out what happened, that's when they told us about the "loss factor."

11.

gimmiegimmie -- The broker did, of course, give the dimensions of the various rooms... and had no problem with me bringing a measuring tape to an open house. It's just that she was opting out of the whole square footage inflation game. If she was accurate, and called a 600 sq ft apt a 600 sq ft apt, she'd lose out to the brokers who called the same apartment "around" 800 sq ft.

12.

goljerp - you are in better shape than i was t/4..brokers gave out wrong sq / wrong dimensions / wrong floor plans to apts i was looking at....and had no problem doing so. Another favorite was brokers taking a prewar floorplan, removing the original notations, and typing onto it things like " 2nd BR " when it was actually created as a dressing room...

13.

there are standards out there, nobody uses them in the residential market that i have ever seen. I think its one of those new york city things, you just know not to believe it.

http://www.buildingareameasurement.com/fams.htm

14.

I had the same problem with several listings, many of them sold by owner. They usually exaggerate the size by 80-100 sq feet. When you see an ad saying "huge 900 sq feet one bedroom", you can be sure that the total size of the apartment is at best a bit above 800. Those that have good apartment layouts often lie and add 100 or so sq feet. Well-known brokerage firms (like Elliman and Corcoran) usually don't lie that much but they round up the size of the room. I.e., almost 800 usually means 760-775. They often omit the size of the apartment saying something like "spacious 1br" when the size of the apt is only 650 sq feet. The only way to find out for sure is to demand the floor plan. Quite often, they will give you the real floor plan with real sizes on it, so you just need to sit down and carefully calculate the numbers and guess the sizes of certain rooms/spaces where the exact size is not shown. And always bring the measuring tape and measure the rooms yourself.

15.

Which brings me back to my very very simple point:

Almost every seller/broker uses the same inflated BS number but you can still use it to compare because the BS factor is consistent.

300 real sqft = 400 BS sqft
500-600 real sqft = 650-800 BS sqft
700-800 real sqft = 1000-1100 BS sqft
1000-1300 real sqft = 1200-1500 BS sqft
1400-1700 real sqft = 1600-2000 BS sqft
and so on.

The BS numbers are what you will nearly always see but all 700 sqft apts will be shown as 1000 sqft BS sqft so if 700 sqft is what you need, just go see the 1000 BS sft apts. Simple really.

16.

gimmiegimmie - Don't get me started on "second bedrooms" which were obviously dining rooms renamed to get more money... (I mean, who purposely designs a bedroom with french doors onto the living room and a second door to the hallway across from the kitchen?)

I usually brought my tape measure when looking at apartments; I wish I had the gizmo a coworker bought for $30 which takes measurements via sound waves...

17.

goljerp - - now if they could make the sound wave measurer with a little bit of taser attached for zapping the brokers who lie, that could make open houses fun again

18.

Yet another 'broker bashing' continues. Goljerp and gimmegimme should zap each others butts!

19.

sassy - i am not bashing the good brokers...but u know the numbers...there are so many recent to the field brokers, and quite a few have warped experinece / ideas / commitment to the field and upholding "honest" brokering.

20.

There is no such thing as an honest broker. People who get into careers that revolve around money, such as brokers, investments, or finance advisors, are never honest to begin with and have no qualms about lying.

21.

OK, if only other jobs out there, like The Presidency or The Vice Presidency, were upheld to the same standards of honesty as what you think real estate brokers and other careers revolving money should be held, Iraq and the whole Republican party wouldn't be such a beg mess. Oy!!

22.

Gojerp - those sonic measuring gizmos are horribly inaccurate; any number from one of those is +/- a bit under 2 feet depending on the room finishes, humidity, batteries, and distance to measure.

23.

Making a price per sf calculation, which is invaluable when comparing 2 or more listings, requires accurate data. Usually you will not get it. Coops are not sold by sf, so unless it's actually measured by the owner or broker, the ultimate number is only guessed at. And that is the problem. Most buyers, and most brokers (trust me, I am one) do not trouble themselves to really learn to 'size' an apt. Since almost every listing is oversized by 20% it becomes everyones new reality. It's more lazy than malicious.

It's true too that telling the exact truth about the size of a listing can make it look 20% overpriced. There is no advantage in being the only honest guy on the block. Until accurate measuring becomes everyday, which will require a top down direction from management, the problem will persist. Work with a broker that can cut through the bs. Also, if on-the-fly sf calculation is not your thing, then imagine your furniture, etc. in the new space. Work room by room and establish a comfort level that way.

24.

I grew up in the burbs -- and our two car garage was 400 square feet (25 x 20). I've used this as a visual reference when I see apts.

25.

Um, Emily, 25X20 is 500 sqft. 100sqft is significant in NYC apts.

And #23 confirms what I am talking about - there is no problem. Just keep using those 20% inflated numbers as you view apts and you will get a good sense of what those inflated numbers really mean in the real world. If a BS 400 sqft apt is big enough for you even when it is really only 300 sqft then all BS 400 sqft apts will be big enough.

26.

wait, you mean there are people who DON'T bring tape measures to apts they're considering buying? are you all mental? of course the numbers are all way overinflated, and of course you can easily get the right numbers by measuring yourself. it's really not that hard.

i do, however, take issue with VDH's statement that "There is always a broker BS factor except in new condo construction where the real sqft has to be stated in the offering plan." i've looked at plenty of new-condo offering plans from elliman, corcoran, the development group, etc., and the offering plans are almost always off by 10 percent or so per unit.

27.

I got the same question too and my response was the following which isn't helpful but it is honest.

It appears that Curbed has answered your question.
My take on square footage is that I have the professionals take care of e.g Appraisers.
I often direct buyers to the floorplan and have them figure out the measurements and I am more than happy to let them measure the apartments themselves. If I do quote I give an estimate and let them know that I could be miscalculating.

28.

To those who can't use a measuring tape and can't look at a space and decide if it is large enough for them without attaching some arbitrary number that they can't even visualize when they close their eyes:

Cry more, noobs.

29.

I just bought a new construction condo. Listed at 670 sq ft but really only 592 sq feet of space you can walk on. I have been looking to buy for over a year and this hurdle, phantom square footage I call it, took me some time to get over. The offering plan approved by the attorney general's office says 670. So i asked where is the phantom area. In condo (not sure about coop) it includes some of the hall space outside my door, some of the area in the trash chute room on my floor.... Its a total ripoff, but that is the way it works in NYC real estate. So when in Rome.... What is one to do? I am sure I am not the first one to breach this problem so when I sell, someone else will have to deal with that as well and luckily, we are in NYC and if your place is decent, has a view and in a good location you will ALWAYS have a buyer.

30.

With all this square footage puffery going on, it makes me wonder about the validity of often quoted stats like theNYTimes' $1,115/ sq. ft. average for apartments on the UWS. So probably the real average cost per sq.ft. might be something like $1,600 or who knows?

How do they arrive at these stats, probably by using the inflated sq.ft. numbers from sales? And let's say we're trying to compare prices in NY with those in other cities around the world? Who knows how other cities calculate and the exaggeration factor.
So really, we should just forget about getting any kind of accurate picture of housing costs and size.

OK, this doesn't keep me up at night, but perhaps it's something to think about?

31.

With all this square footage puffery going on, it makes me wonder about the validity of often quoted stats like the NYTimes' $1,115/ sq. ft. average for apartments on the UWS. So probably the real average cost per sq.ft. might be something like $1,600 or who knows?

How do they arrive at these stats, probably by using the inflated sq.ft. numbers from sales? And let's say we're trying to compare prices in NY with those in other cities around the world? Who knows how other cities calculate these figures?
So really, we should just forget about getting any kind of accurate picture of housing costs and size.

OK, this doesn't keep me up at night, but perhaps it's something to think about?

32.

With all this square footage puffery going on, it makes me wonder about the validity of often quoted stats like the NYTimes' $1,115/ sq. ft. average for apartments on the UWS. So probably the real average cost per sq.ft. might be something like $1,600 or who knows?

How do they arrive at these stats, probably by using the inflated sq.ft. numbers from sales? And let's say we're trying to compare prices in NY with those in other cities around the world? Who knows how other cities calculate these figures?
So really, we should just forget about getting any kind of accurate picture of housing costs and size.

OK, this doesn't keep me up at night, but perhaps it's something to think about?

33.

Well wburger and Amirzhere, I didn't want to get into what went into condo sq footage in offering plans because it misses the point.

Yes, there is "inflation" but it is not the kind nor to the level I and others are talking about. Do I sound like a broken record yet? I'm talking about the 300 real useable sqft apts being advertised universally as 400sqft and over. In a condo offering plan you would get maybe 330 sqft. In brokerspeak you always hit 400 and over.

But again, it does not matter because as long as you like the amount of space and your furniture or 24' wide rug(!) fits then who cares what he broker BS number is. If you think it inflates the $ per sqft # then don't buy it. But remember all other apts will be similarly inflated so it does not matter!!!!

34.

Houdi, actually my appraisal firm, Miller Samuel provides the housing stats to the New York Times ($1,115 p/SF) for Manhattan and we use the methodology in comment number 5 that I posted yesterday.

"...How do they arrive at these stats, probably by using the inflated sq.ft. numbers from sales?"

Actually you have got your math reversed. If your broker overestimated the size of the apartment, the price per square foot would actually be lower per square foot, not higher.

ie
$1,000,000 SP/1,000 SF = $1,000 PSF

versus same apartment measured larger

$1,000,000 SP/ 1,200 SF = $833 PSF

Larger apartment and same price = lower price per square foot. Hopefully that clarification is helpful to you.

35.

To enter the fray: Aren't coop/condo fees based on size? Therefore, if there is a 10-20% or more fudge (sorry BS) factor, are not New York City consumers getting ripped off big time in inflated payments to management?

36.

Jonathan, #34
Thank you for your comments.
However, I probably was not clear in what I wrote.

The problem is that if the size of an apartment is greatly exaggerated, then the REAL price that the buyer pays per square foot is higher. In other words, he is being cheated - he is getting a smaller apartment and the price per sq. ft is thereby higher than he originally thought.

Example - A so-called 800 sq.ft. apt is listed for $600,000. Then you learn that it is really 450 sq. ft. for $600,000. So, of course, the price per sq. ft. shoot up accordingly.

37.

Puffy, the maintenance and CC of coops and condos are worked out on a gross basis to cover operating expenses and underlying mortgate of a coop if it has one. That gross amount is then divided (this is very simplistic but gets the point across) amongst the shareholders/condo owners based on percentage ownership of the shares/building. Thus the real sq footage does not matter if all units are measured/represented in the same manner.

People are placing too much store into these numbers. Pricing is all about what the market will bear and if the market (you - the buyer and other buyers) decide that something (a) is not really x thousand sqft and (b) even if it were is not worth x thousand $$ per sqft then all the stats in the world will not help you or the seller.

As much as I respect Jonathan Miller, his work and his what he writes in his blogs, I suspect that he does not necessarily agree with the way Douglas Elliman use his numbers to hype up the market the way that they do. His blog is much more circumspect when dealing with these numbers.

38.

Unfortunately, part of the reason that brokers inflate squre footage has to do with buyers'/renters' obsession with this issue and their little arbitrary "rules" -- "I won't look at anything under 500 square feet." Have any of them ever considered layout -- I've seen 500 square foot one bedrooms in which fully one half of the square footage was taken up by a long, narrow hallway -- the apartment was in the back of the building and you had to walk this way to get to it (this is not an isolated example, there are many such apartments in NYC, usually in walk-up tenement-style buildings). The resulting useable space was tiny, but because it was (really!) 500 square feet, people would look at it. So you show then that then a well-laid out 300 square foot place and the pieces start to fall into place.

So maybe brokers do exagerrate square footage to get some of the arbitrary types to look at a nice, well-laid-out place thay might otherwise miss. I'm not saying that's the only reason, but the unrealistic criteria imposed by some buyers/renters is part of the problem. "What's the square footage" is not the most intelligent first question to ask before even seeing a property -- take a look, see what you think, see if it works for you, then get down to the specifics.

And BTW, your lawyer will know the exact square footage during due diligence, because it's in every co-op/condo's original offering plan, which your lawyer will examine. And then if you find out that the apartment you've fallen in love with is 150 sqare feet smaller than the broker told you you can back out before signing a contract -- but do you really think many people would?

39.

Sounds like some people think even offering plan s.f. numbers can be wrong? Would love to hear any thoughts on this since I'm in contract on a unit bought based on a floorplan alone, which does happen fairly often with new construction. I do have room dimensions for the LR, DR and two BRs at least, has anyone experienced puffery with those #s?

40.

Room dimensions are pretty accurate down to about half a foot (if you can call that accurate) or less. They should be exact but depending on what needed to be done with framing and drywall to accomodate plumbing etc. you may lose a few inches.
Where the disparity occurs is when they include closet and mechanical room sq footage, etc. in the final number. The actual room sizes you do not need to worry about.

41.

My current rental (studio loft) is a little over 600 sq ft, by my measure. That's a "real" measure, though. I've told realtors that I'm looking to buy something similar, and every single place I've looked at is TINY. I think my place would probably be listed as 750+ sq ft (it's a good, usable layout). Every realtor I've questioned on their square footage measure sounds like an idiot when pressed for details. I usually say, "give me room dimensions, and I'll do the math". Amazingly, the dimensions are never even close to the advertised apartment size. I know this has all been said above, but I felt like adding my $.02/sq ft.

42.

So -- the question I have is simply...
Has anyone seen (or know of) any cases where the buyer has gone back and sued the listing agent and/or the appraiser for fudging the numbers. For example -- say I pay $250K for what I am told is 2,500 feet. The county appraisal distric comes to measure the home for next years tax assessments, takes their measurements and come to find out -- the house is only 2,100 sq ft. So -- wen I go to sell -- the tax records will show 2,100 and I'll end up eating the extra $$ I paid for no reason??
Seems like, as a buyer, you should have some legal recourse on "over-estimated" sq. footage totals?? Anyone know of such a thing?

43.

A google search for "suing" and "square footage" will bring up at least one story about this. If you can't find it, try a search for "Mike Mason" and "Elk Grove". What seems funny to me is that this guy is suing over 150 sq feet in a 2500 sq ft home. In my experience in NYC, most brokers are exaggerating square footage by 100-200 sq feet on an 800 sq foot apt!!!! (they say it's 800 when it's really only 650.)

44.

Vayikra Leviticus 19:35 emphasizes the importance of a fair standard of measure. This is a comandment!35. You shall not commit a perversion of justice with measures, weights, or liquid measures. 36. You shall have true scales, true weights, a true ephah, and a true hin. I am the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt. 37. You shall observe all My statutes and all My ordinances, and fulfill them. I am the Lord.

45.

Repent!! Go to Rutherford Place condos and find "the way!"

46.

As an agent, I really wish that REBNY would encourage all member firms to measure the same way. I thought we weren't allowed to approximate more than 5% (see Stribling lawsuit) but lately I see apts listed as 20% larger than they are. It's ridiculous.

Currently, SF is a horrible way to guage an apartment's worth in NYC coops. The per square foot averages are completely off and therefore meaningless. It is true (and so annoying) that if you ask three people an aparment's size, you will get three numbers.

Buyers always want to know what the square footage is, This is unfortunate because they don't even know what they're talking about. The "professionals" don't even know. Gross SF? Usable SF? It's a mess. We should all be trained to measure like the appraisers do and leave it at that.

Buyers: look at the measurements on the floor plan (if there are any). Stop asking for the SF, the bank's appaiser will tell you and you are only encouraging agents to exaggerate (We all want to be liked!). But best thing is to get inside the apartment and see how it feels. And bring your tape measure!!! We all want to save time, but if your only interested in seeing apartments that are above a certain SF, you may be missing something great.