Atlantic Yards Public Hearing: Race Card Played

1.

i want to kill all of these stupid white midwestern and southern honkeys and others who have found it a trendy experience to move into bk in the last decade or so. they need to go back to oklahoma with their funny accent and clothes and leave us alone. those people who just moved to the coast 3 years ago complaining cuz they neighborhoods changing now. cowards. can all go to heLL!

2.

Back to Pleasantville? That hurts! I actually *am* from Pleasantville and living in Brooklyn.

But, hey, maybe it's just as fair for me to say that maybe if Umar wants big, imposing, out-of-scale buildings, he should go back to Attica, where, in fairness, they probably would love to have him at his old job grinding license-plates.

3.

Being "against tall buildings" in the city of sky scrapers, little available land and a lack of housing makes zero sense.

Please do go back to the suburbs where your ranch house is the only thing that obstructs your god-given right to see every inch of the sky.

4.

this thread is the same old, same old. B-O-R-I-N-G.

5.

pulling the wool over the eyes of black folks is pretty simple. "affordable housing now"! wasn't that the chant/cry? the plan does not call for that for at least 10 years down the line at best...what a crock. too many of those brooklyn black folks simply can't see when a bone is being thrown to them & they are being manipulated.....being offered obligatory crumbs....while Ratner gets over big time.

on behalf of my fellow Black folks over there in Brooklyn, I'd like to apologize to all the people, white, black, blue, green, and yellow, who have improved brooklyn over the last 10 years.

do understand those black folks are primarily beach negroes, coconuts, etc. from the carribean....(Jamaica, Trinidad, etc.) and don't know any better than to bite and take the Rat's bait. Bring Jay-Z, Jason Kidd, and etc. blah blah blah and those west indians are sucked in like the beef in a Jamaican Patty.

6.

pulling the wool over the eyes of black folks is pretty simple. "affordable housing now"! wasn't that the chant/cry? the plan does not call for that for at least 10 years down the line at best...what a crock. too many of those brooklyn black folks simply can't see when a bone is being thrown to them & they are being manipulated.....being offered obligatory crumbs....while Ratner gets over big time.

on behalf of my fellow Black folks over there in Brooklyn, I'd like to apologize to all the people, white, black, blue, green, and yellow, who have improved brooklyn over the last 10 years.

do understand those black folks are primarily beach negroes, coconuts, etc. from the carribean....(Jamaica, Trinidad, etc.) and don't know any better than to bite and take the Rat's bait. Bring Jay-Z, Jason Kidd, and etc. blah blah blah and those west indians are sucked in like the beef in a Jamaican Patty.

7.

I am somewhat ambivalent about this project - especially about the sports arena. The sports complex will certainly add a lot of traffic to the area that is already quite congested (try to drive through downtown Brooklyn on a typical day). It's amazing that the city/state gives so many tax incentive to Rattner to build this complex. He in turn, includes a lot of public housing in the mix that makes so many residents want this (who wouldn't want to have a brand-new apartment in a good are at a huge discount). I think that if you remove the stadium from the mix, that would be a much better project for the area.

8.

#4/5 you need help, pal.

No matter how you cut it, Atlantic Yards takes an underused part of the city and puts it to use with affordable housing.

Those are the facts.

9.

Its great a major media source owned by rich white people is finally highlighting the truth: it is rich white people that are against this project.

10.

Wait a minute....who is Atlantic Yards and what is this Ratner now?

11.

It is pretty amazing that #1 thinks that every “Honkey” (lovely racist term) is from out of town. There are many Whites, Asians, Hispanics and Indians who were born and raised in Brooklyn and Prospect Heights specifically—no one group can claim ownership of an entire borough.
There is no doubt that “affordable” housing is something that the city needs, but there will be more than double the number of units of luxury condos (4,000)—which will be built before they begin to build the affordable units. The jobs provided will be temporary construction jobs and should be given to the company/union with the lowest construction bid---should they only hire black workers and leave other racial groups unemployed?
Lastly, it is a question of scale. If and when all of the 6,000 units of housing are built (whatever the final mix of affordable vs. luxury might be) there will not be enough schools in the area to accommodate all of the children, Intersections will be crowded beyond recommended capacity and unsafe, subway stations will be over burdened. If the project included only units of affordable housing, and an arena and half of the office space the scale would be much less burdensome on the borough.

12.

#10 - You're the only one looking at this the right way - the number of affordable units is minimal, the scale and audacity of the project is beyond reason, the arena is a pipe dream, construction jobs are temporary, and the infrastructure can't handle a project of this size. Hey people, stop thinking that the bone they threw you is enough to support this project as it is currently designed. It should be scaled down drastically, more affordable housing is needed for a wider range of income (including middle class, remember them?) and the entire idea of eminent domain being used for private enrichment has to be seriously questioned.

13.

#3 and same tired arguements from both sides. #2 most against this aren't against the tallness, its the ugliness..... And its very nice of the Sun to tiurn this battle of idiotic proportions into the world of racism, getting #4/5 all stoked up. Great jobin adding to the dialog... no wonder I don't read that rag.

14.

12 - ugliness is completely subjective - I find the design by Gehry very attractive, he is a world class architect and it will take more than a few Brooklyn millionaires to trash his image.

Arguments about tall buildings in New York City, especially on a transit hub are just stupid. Scale? Audacity? Welcome to NY you morons.

15.

There is a class war here (i dont believe in using race as a classification here). Traffic is the main opposition here but lets face it, those that dont own a car could care less about more traffic in an area that already has it. The stadium though is valuable space should be used for more buildings and housing. That should be the issue, not traffic or density or losing sky.

16.

as for the stadium - buy a hot dog cart, make a little money and encourage the growth

17.

#13 agreed it is a subjective thing, You like it I personally think Ghery designs some of the worst buildings (not to mention least sueful). Which is why people have a right to disagree and fight to change it without being called morons. Just as people have a right to defend it. I am mostly mixed and about the plan (think something needs to be built, but not this), but I am sorry when one side always brings it back to the "tall building in NY" argument its just missing many of the arguements against it. Some did not pan out (Ratner is not using eminent domain he ponied up the cash like he should), some are about scale (which is a idfferent arguemnt then height, lets spread it out), some are about design (not just the aestetics) there are plenty of arguments, some good some bad. And even though a hack paper like the DN calls this a race issue, its just plain not.

And #14 I agree with the class issue somewhat. One problem is that those who need the "economical housing" want to believe it will actually happen, whereas the others think it won't. I don't think there is many who argue that it will happen but its not worth the traffic. Finally much of the argument could be removed if the stadium was killed. Its a bad idea, in a bad location. Its true that the tax roll might go up a bit because of a few thousand people in the area (a majority of who do not stick around), but to get a team you usually entice them with $$ or tax breaks negating the effects. In fact most stadiums end up costing the city in which they are located. This migth be fine in a blighted city that could use some rejuvenation, but inner-Brooklyn hardly qualifies. We already have enough sports here, do we really need more?

18.

Okay, I'm rather ambivalent on the whole AY thing, though probably ultimately for it. But I'm really turned off by the ridiculously disingenuous argument some here -- like #'s 10 and 11 -- have made about the "temporary" nature of the construction jobs. Hello? ALL construction jobs are temporary. Aside from, perhaps, a few European cathedrals, nothing is under construction forever. But this job will employ THOUSANDS of construction workers for YEARS. What, do you think they don't realize these jobs are "temporary"? And of course, the increased population density that you gentrifiers decry will also lead to an increased need for local labor. You guys are NIMBYS, just admit it. There may be perfectly rational arguments for why another neighborhood would be a better spot for a large housing project than yours. But you need to make them, and not hide behind phony concerns about temporary jobs or inadequate low-income housing. You may think that the impoverished and minorities don't understand what's in thier own interests, but they sure as hell recognize when they're being condescended to. That's why this debate is breaking down along race and class lines.

19.

Amazing how we brothers still believe everything the white man tells us.

You think you or anyone you know is going to get a good paying job at this site? Maybe a job as Beulah cleaning the rich man's apartment.

We will get a lot of suburban traffic on game nights with noise, pollution and congestion, and Starbucks and such.

Is that what you want?

Wise up, rise up. This is a scheme by a greedy developer to screw us and his own people at the same time.

20.

#4 is absolutely right. Affordable housing is the central ruse in an entire platform of bait-and-switch tactics used by FCR, many of which have already been exposed for what they are. Oh, they'll build it. But it won't be for a very long time, it won't be what most supporters consider affordable, and it won't amount to anywhere near the percentages being proposed. Blacks will suffer the indignities of this project right along with whites and everyone else, but they'll also have to contend with a growing realization that they've been manipulated and betrayed.

21.

Straying from the AY proposal a bit, I've noticed that the proposed Columbia-West Harlem expansion plan also seems to fall along racial and class lines, however in the oppposite direction. The biggest visible opposition appears to be from the African-American and Latino communities. If Columbia put affordable housing in the plan, would this reverse the situation? I'm just curious why the difference.

22.

These arguments are the same ones you hear when suburban communities try to zone out multifamily homes. Not enough schools, increased traffic, "context," "scale," blah blah blah.

These are suburban concerns being raised largely by people with suburban sensibilities and backgrounds. I really do not hear many native Brooklynites speaking up about this project - white, black, or hispanic.

When my family moved to Park Slope, our block was 1/3 abandoned buildings (no stickball or spaldeens, relax). If someone told me they were going to build an arena and tons of new apartments, I would think they were on Angel Dust (we didn't have crack in the 70s).

It's hard for a native Brooklynite to see dense urban development as a problem. Sorry.

23.

It's a shame that Ratner opponents view African-American supporters as too stupid to see "the truth" (i.e. the opposition's version of things). As someone else on this thread mentioned, they are perfectly capable of making their own decisions.

I really can't wait for construction to begin. All of this whining has grown so tiresome.

24.

19 you are a conspiracy theorist. 2250 units of affordable housing. What do you provide? Nothing but suburbanite whining and entitlement.

25.

22. Shut Up. Just Shut Up. When Ratner pulls in rapper "Jay-Z' into the deal, what does that tell you?

Is "Jay-Z" a developer? A real estate tycoon? Does he have a Harvard MBA?

That right there should tell you all you need to know. Manipulate the Brooklyn Negroes by branding your project w/a home-grown Brooklyn Negro with "idol" status.

I know Black people that OWN investment firms, Construction companies, Developers, etc. in New York City that have degrees from Sloan, Wharton, Tuck, Kellog, etc...on and on.

Does Ratner tap on these people? Hell No? Why? They've of no value to manipulate the Brooklyn negroes. They bring nothing to the table other than legitimate qualifications. It's not about legitimacy...it's about manipulation of perception.

The whole bringing in Jay Z into the mix sans missing the numerous qualified Black talent with solid credentials is the ultimate insult, slap in the face, and really statement saying that, you Brooklyn folks "ain't nuthing 'but some dumb ni##ers!.

And he's right, that's basically what you all are.
Jay freaking Z? Give me a break,....and yes I am Black....but gotta be honest.

26.

There's nothing very conspiratorial about it, FCR has been pretty obvious about its willingness to say one thing and do another. And it's not about intelligence but about faith. Who do you believe? Developers who stand to reap hundreds of millions in profits or concerned neighbors who--regardless of their own backgrounds or even personal motivations--are pointing out some very real consequences that affect everyone? No one is suggesting that this is a develop-or-not-develop question. We all suppport development. But the devil is in the details and you need to look closely.

27.

24 is not a black person.

28.

Yeah, Jay-Z has dumbed himself into close to $100 million over the years. Damn those stupid ass Negroes and their pesky pipe dreams.

29.

The assertion that any native Brooklynite supports high-rise development is nonsense on its face.

Brooklyn is typically a borough of low-rise, low-density neighborhoods.

What are you going to call the new neighborhood that pig Ratner plans to create?

It ain't Fort Greene, it ain't Prospect Hgts. What kind of neighborhood is built over RR tracks and calls itself "Atlantic Yards". You call that a neighborhood?

Where are the stoops, the mom&pop stores, the streets for playing?

This is just going to bring more Yuppies and B&T on game nights. This is not Brooklyn, this is the Upper East Side in a Trojan Horse.

I wonder how many of the so-called Brooklyn natives who support this monstrosity actually live nearby.

Oh yeah, by the way, I am a Brooklyn native and lived in Prospect Heights from 1950-70, before it was even called Prospect Heights.

Kudos to all the locals fighting Ratner and preserving one of the city's best neighborhoods.

30.

The assertion that any native Brooklynite supports high-rise development is nonsense on its face.

Brooklyn is typically a borough of low-rise, low-density neighborhoods.

What are you going to call the new neighborhood that pig Ratner plans to create?

It ain't Fort Greene, it ain't Prospect Hgts. What kind of neighborhood is built over RR tracks and calls itself "Atlantic Yards". You call that a neighborhood?

Where are the stoops, the mom&pop stores, the streets for playing?

This is just going to bring more Yuppies and B&T on game nights. This is not Brooklyn, this is the Upper East Side in a Trojan Horse.

I wonder how many of the so-called Brooklyn natives who support this monstrosity actually live nearby.

Oh yeah, by the way, I am a Brooklyn native and lived in Prospect Heights from 1950-70, before it was even called Prospect Heights.

Kudos to all the locals fighting Ratner and preserving one of the city's best neighborhoods.

31.

I was at the hearing last night, for 6 and a half hours. The speakers boiled down to three categories:
1. people who want jobs and affordable housing and uncritically support Ratner's plan
2. people who want jobs and affordable housing but have reservations about this plan (such as, scale it down, fix the transpo issues, give more time to analyze)
3. people who want jobs and affordable housing and think this particular plan will not provide either in any meaningful or definitive way (they think Ratner will drop Phase 2 - the affordable portion - as soon as he can't sell out all 4000 luxury units, or that he won't abide by the CBA terms)

The point is this: EVERYONE supports the need to create affordable housing, and the jobs that come with constructing that. EVERYONE supports a binding CBA. But NOT EVERYONE thinks that the plan as proposed is the BEST way to get those things.

That's what this whole process should be about: PERFECTING this idea. Ratner's plan has many positive elements, but it is not perfect. Its supporters somehow feel that they have to act like it is perfect just the way it is, that any criticism is wrong, racist, classist, whatever...this attitude defeats the purpose of honest debate, of democratic process. What are they afraid of? The majority of critics (I don't call them opponents) WANT this project in some form: there is room for compromise.

The ESDC - clearly supporters of the plan - have gone out of their way to avoid any criticism, to squelch any debate. Why the bum's rush? Why avoid the COmmunity Boards? Why so impervious to constructive criticism?

32.

27, Jay Z is in the entertainment industry and apparel industry. He's done very well in those areas, Kudos to him.

What are his qualifications to be associated w/Ratner and this project? He's there to dupe all you Brooklyn negroes and it's so clear and transparent. The fact that Ratner did this, pulled in Jay Z is a enormous insult to Brooklyn negroes and the legitimate Black developers, Investment bankers, etc....that are left out in the cold. Wanna be a developer in Brooklyn? Don't get an MBA from Wharton, rap, make money, that's your ticket?

So who's the next big Black developer? "'Lil John"? "Nelly"? Credible educated negroes not allowed, bring in the 'singing & 'dancing negroes!

All while there is a lot of Black talent inc construction, banking, and development that's made millions in their fields that are not included?

White people, what would you think if Britney Spears, Eminem, etc. were brought into a real estate development project? You're laughing right?

This is the mindset of my Black brothern. All it takes is fame and making money in one field, to be given credibility and legitimacy in a completely different field. Negroes tend to be that dumb.
If Jay Z opens an investment banking firm, would you actually put your money in his hands? Ha!

I swear, you will never go broke underestimating the ignorance of Black folks. Eye always off the ball,.....hell my people don't even know what the ball is (unless it's orange and being dribbled by Jason Kidd)...Who Ratner smartly pulled into the project to further dupe the negroes.

33.

30, you are blind fool. If you think Negroes are the only people to leverage fame and money made in one field to another, then maybe you deserve your dead-end existence.

If Jay-Z opened an investment firm and hired the best minds available to run it (irrespective of color), then your damned right I'd put my money in his hands.

Ratner seeks partners who make things happen and have the resources to effect change. Just because Jay-Z is not your type of Negro doesn't really make this project any less beneficial to Brooklyn.

34.

White people will buy into the whole credibility in one field gives it to you in another. Trump Ice bottled water anyone? Paris Hilton?

The long term jobs created are not from construction, they are from the arena and all the buildings' staffs.

35.

You can't live in New York City and complain about tall buildings (or "scale"), traffic, noise, and shadows. If you don't want those things, there is a simple solution - MOVE TO THE SUBURBS.

New York City shouldn't bow down to a bunch of 30-something yuppies who don't want to grow up. This city is about progress and development. If you want to live in a quiet, sleepy town where nothing ever changes, you're gonna have to move somewhere else. Stop trying to "suburbanize" New York.

36.

Hi, it ain't just the black man who can be sucked in by Ratner and Markowitz's BS.

H.L. Mencken: "Never overestimate the intelligence of the American people."
Or P.T. Barnum: "There's a sucker born every minute."

You think they would build a monstrosity like this in a white neighborhood?
Look when the Jets tried it on the West Side last year. All the residents fought it and Shelly Silver killed it.

Wake up, Brooklyn, before you look like West New York, New Jersey.

37.

Hi,

Velvet Sea:What makes you believe black people are going be hired in those good-paying post-construction jobs? I have a bridge to sell you, if you fall for that.

And it is not just the black man who can be sucked in by Ratner and Markowitz's BS.

H.L. Mencken (1927): "Never overestimate the intelligence of the American people."
Or P.T. Barnum (1887): "There's a sucker born every minute."

You think they would build a monstrosity like this in a white neighborhood?
Look when the Jets tried it on the West Side last year. All the residents fought it and Shelly Silver killed it.

And for 12:34 PM, Don't give me that tired old brainless retort: "Go to the suburbs". I am a native Brooklynite. You are someone who mistakes Brooklyn for Manhattan. Manhattan is high-rise. Brooklyn is low-rise.
I bet you are not a native Brooklynite.

Wake up, Brooklyn, before you look like West New York, New Jersey.

38.

the reason why jay z is involved is because he is one of the main investors in the effort to buy the new jersey nets and move them to brooklyn. he has money, he's a fan, wants to buy a team, and relocate. simple enough. just like anyone else who owns a franchise.

39.

quick note to those who say they will not biuld the affordable. each biulding will be a mix of affordable and market rate, it will not be one biulding of poor and one of rich. everyone will live together. So please stop the BS about not biulding affordable units. If it gets biult, it will have affordable in every biulding that goes up. Think what you want, I tend to think it works but have some reservations, bt stop trying to feed lies and scare people.

40.

This is one of the few Atlanic Yards threads on here that actually has some semblance of a reasonable debate going on, which is nice. But can we please declare a moratorium on the word "NIMBY" and the "if you don't like tall buildings move to the suburbs" argument? Not particularly productive, and I'm really sick of reading them.

41.

AP Newswire - Ratner is pulling in 2 new partners in the Atlantic Yards Development, Rita Marley, widow of Bob Marley and Voletta Wallace, mother of deceased rapper Notorious BIG aka "Biggie Smalls".

What?....how dare you suggest there is some manipulative agenda behind this!

42.

I agree with #26 - #24 is not really a black person, but a project opponent trying avoid being called a racist for saying all of those unflattering things about African-Americans.

DONE DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

43.

HEY #26 and # 39

Instead of wasting time quibbling over #24's creditentials, you should be quibbling over mine.

I fu*k all sorts of people, black, white and even my fellow Jewish brethren if I can make a buck.

"Behind every fortune, there is a crime."

I will screw you when I have the time. Believe me.

44.

Justin: a nimby stands for "Not In My Back Yard". The opponents of this plan are saying "Don't build this in my back yard". Therefore, they (and you) are nimbys.

The "move back to the suburb" argument is valid as well. Shadows? How about everyone that is "disturbed" by the height of the Williamsburg Savings Bank building petition to get it torn down. Scale? How can one with that argument possibly call themselves a NYer? The reason is that they have the "suburbanite sense of entitlement".

All the nimby, and new-to-the-neighborhood whites don't want this development because they don't want their little gentrifying utopia to be shared. Get over yourselves.

45.

Justice:

And just where do you live and how will this project directly benefit you?

46.

Chill dude. I know what NIMBY means, and I very deliberately didn't give any sort of opinion of my own, so you have no idea if I'm a NIMBY or not. I didn't even say those aren't valid arguments, I'm just really sick of reading "All you non-native NIMBYs should move back to Connecticut if you don't want to live near tall buildings." Point's been made, we get it, it doesn't add to the debate, which is a lot more complicated than that. Knee-jerk generalizations from either side ruin whatever sort of real discourse is going on. That's all I'm saying. And I really wish we could come up with a better word than "NIMBY."

47.

Hey 36 -- If you really believe that nonsense about luxury and affordable housing being the same building would you please come over and suck mine because obviously you can really swallow it whole.

48.

Hey 36, if you really believe that nonsense about luxury and affordable housing being in the same buildings would you please come over and suck mine because you obviously can really swallow it whole.

49.

I believe #24 and #30 are Black. I hear this type of tired rhetoric from "hyper-educated" Blacks all the time.

It's interesting to me that an MBA or working for an investment bank makes one worthy of coming to the table. They really don't get it that's because the spent so much time getting formal education, and believing that this is what makes them superior.

So let me get this straight. If Jay-Z was unknown miscellaneous radom negro with the proper sheep skin validation WORKING for Ratner,(like some many of you hyper educated wage slaves do; even if you make $150+) That would be an advancement for us???

Jay-Z serves as an example of what is possible. He took his lane (rap) and ran with it and is able to parlay is celebrity into more influence.

50.

#10: Your statement is rife with inaccuracies.

I was at the hearing, and to my Bronx-born-and-raised ear, few of the opponents (who were about 90% white) had New York accents.

There aren't 4,000 luxury condos in the plan. There are 2,300. Virtually the same number of affordable rental units (2,250).

You enclose affordable in quotation marks to make it appear that they are not truly affordable at all. The truth is that they ARE affordable, but not just to the poor, but also the middle-class. The middle-class base of this City is eroding rapidly. The innovative plan to have half the units affordable on seven levels is the brilliant kind of thinking that will save this City.

Who do you think pay the taxes that keep this city alive? The poor can't afford to, and the rich won't. It's the middle-class. They need housing in this City, too. The Ratner plan will put poor, middle-class, and wealthy all in the same complex. It's a great thing.

The "temporary" construction jobs you seemingly discount (even though there are 15,000 of them) shows you have no knowledge of how the unionized construction industry works. Due to the progressive community benefits agreement worked out, many of these jobs will go to Brooklyn residents. women and people of color. As Ratner has committed to using union labor, these people will then become union members. When the Ratner job ends, they can avail themselves of the union hiring hall, where they will be dispatched to other construction sites throughout the City. Thus turning "temporary jobs" with Ratner into lifelong careers in construction for thousands of currently unemployed or underemployed Brooklyn residents.

Your statement that the jobs should be given to the lowest bidder is ignorant and actually hurts the people who need the help the most. Could Ratner award the work to a non-union shop that would pay laborers $10 per hour, carpenters $12 per hour and plumbers $15 per hour? Absolutely. And what would he get for it? Substandard work. And what would the community get? Truly temporary jobs, one's where when construction is finished, the workers are laid off and there's no hiring hall, there's no apprentice program or ongoing journeyman training program, and no future. How does that benefit the community?

As for scale, re: schools, they can be built as well. And your point on the subways is refuted by the DEIS, which states the current subways in the area have enough capacity to absorb the increased ridership.

Get your facts straight, man...

51.

# 28: You state "The assertion that any native Brooklynite supports high-rise development is nonsense on its face."

Oh my God...the arrogance! You dare to speak for all of the millions of native Brooklynites and say that none of them...not one...supports high-rise development?

This is why the opponents ultimately lose the arguemnt. Resorting to hyperbole because you don't have facts on your side. People see through your bullshit, you know!

52.

of course the construction jobs will be permanent in a Gehry design, they'll be back every three months to repair all the leaks that riddle his buildings

53.

Mike, I'm not 28, but I'm pretty sure the guy was objecting to a previous assertion that any Brooklyn native would automatically support high-rise development.

54.

Thanks, #49, for clarifying to Mike "The Laborer" what any intelligent person should have recognized.

Yo, Mike, I love your statement;
"To my Bronx-born-and-raised ear, few of the opponents (who were about 90% white) had New York accents."

As I stated earlier, I am a native Brooklynite. You admit you are from the Bronx, a wonderful borough, but not as wonderful as Brooklyn.
Among other neighborhoods, I lived and went to school in Prospect Heights/Fort Greene for 20 years. I can say whatever I want about Brooklyn with a lot more validity than you can. I love Prospect Heights although I no longer live there, but wish the residents total victory against FCR.

You have the mentality of a strip miner who goes into a small Appalachian town, destroys the town, its beauty, its environment, its people, and, after you destroy it, move on somewhere else to plunder.

Furthermore, what exactly is a NY accent? I'l tell you: there is no NY accent! There is are several accents throughout the city, depending on race, education, neighborhood, ethnicity, age, and even sexual orientation.

I think what you refer to as a "NY accent" is a white, male, working-class accent. I sent to college in the Bronx, and I bet I do not have your accent.
No class warfare here, Mike, just basic linguistics.

And stop bringing in people's race, whatever yours is. Don't debase this debate with racial mudslinging.

Anyway, stop getting hung up on how people speak and go destroy Macoombs Dam Park in the Bronx if you want to uproot something.

Leave my borough alone.

55.

It quite amazing to read some of the comments here talking about "greedy developer", this terrible person that just wants to exploit the community and make a buck. I can only attribute those kinds of comments to a very poor understand of how the economy escpecially under the free market system works. Yes, the only reason any developer spends his time and effort on any project is because he wants to make money. That's is the essense of our free-market system. Manhattan would not have any skyscrapers if not for the businesses that want to make money.

All this talk about temporary jobs or that the jobs won't go to local residents is also didiculous. Let's assume the worst - let's assume that all of those jobs will go to Queens residents. Won't that create shortage in other areas of construction since so many workers will be utilized by the Ratner project? Isn't it always better to have jobs, hotels, housinig than have none? Wouldn't this project generate billions in real estate taxes over the course of many years and add to the viability of Brooklyn? Whether the local community will benefit much or not, I don't know. But many Brooklyn residents will benefit because many of those high rises will house large companies where they offer more jobs closeby.

I have reservation about a stadium in the middle of a densly populated area because of the traffic. But any housing/hotels/business would be a good thing

56.

I personally like the idea of having a high density cluster on that site.

The existing axis of flatbush ave connecting manhattan bridge and prospect park is important enough to justify such an accentuation. The small scale fabric lies mainly south of the site and won't be overshadowed.

It's an intriguing thought to create very efficient, affordable housing in high rises in that spot. If the city really needs to grow it shouldn't be preserved for nostalgic reasons.

But I do agree (it has been pointed out already) that the details are the problem: The huge footprints of the buildings look like they hinder permeability and, as always with those developments, what could become valuable public spaces is probably gonna be some privatised, sterile wanna-be public bullshit...

Do you guys think slender towers and more "air" between buildings for pedestrian traffic would make it better?

57.

Mike the Laborer:

You really didn't address #10's main point, which is the racial angle that has unfortunately filtered into this debate both from the public (see this thread for proof!) and from the promoters of this project...his point in his first two paragraphs is that judging by race - for any reason - is stupid and wrong and perpetuates the very systems that people are trying to break out of(I hope he agrees with my summary).

I think you also are drinking some Ratner Koolaid if you think there's only 2000 market rate apts, AND you obviously don't live in this part of town if you think the subways are undercapacity by any real measure....

58.

#53: I wasn't attempting to address #10's main point, just point out that his post was largely inaccurate.

As for the race issue, I take no side in it. However, just because the papers report a racial divide, that doesn't make them racist. They are just reporting the facts. I was at the hearing last night and it seemed to me that roughly 9 out of each 10 opponents was white. I simply stated that fact. If I was going to make race an issue, I'd have pointed out that the vast majority of proponents were people of color, as were most of the building trades workers.

I also didn't say there were only 2,000 market rate apartments. I said there weren't 4,000 "luxury condos" as #10 stated, only 2,300. In fact, the plan calls for 2,250 affordable rental units, 2,250 market-rate rental units and 2,300 condos.

And once again, I take no opinion on the subway issue. I simply stated that the DEIS says that the current subways can absorb the increased capacity.

Either accept the DEIS or don't. Again, this is the problem with the opponents...in their hysteria to bad mouth this project, they lose all credibility. They accept the DEIS when it talks about the traffic nightmare, and reject it when it says the subways are adequate.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Of course, that's what you want...to live in NYC and Kansas at the same time...

Simply put: Argue the facts, not hysterical conjecture.

59.

tall buildings happen mostly in manhattan dont they? who would have thought stuff like that would happen in brooklyn.

60.

I'm surprised at how cavalier you all are about those of us who live in the footprint and stand to lose our homes and jobs. It's possible to create jobs, housing and even an arena without razing our homes. It would just be slightly less profitable for Ratner. Why doesn't anyone see this?

and no, I'm not a rich thirty-something, and I'm not Dan.

61.

The "15,000" jobs is actually 1500 jobs over ten years.

62.

I have spoken with hundreds of African-American residents of public housing about the Ratner proposal. The vast majority are opposed to the project, and they see Ratner as just another rich guy making promises.

This was an event choreographed by a billionaire to make it seem like African-Americans support him. It's the typical divide-and-conquer strategy that the press has swallowed hook, line and sinker.

63.

manhattan nowadays is an unholy marriage of jane jacobs and robert moses. ratner is brooklyn's moses

64.

Seeing all these evangelically crazy white pasties complaining and bitching about a city, a borough, and a neighborhood in trying to development and improve itself is so typical.

The subways, the schools, the infrastructure will all be added and/or improved when it can be paid for and when it warrants it. Rome wasn't built in a day you stupid swines.

Go and die already you old ass irrelevant pricks. Go back to your middle America to practice your religious opposition to progress and growth. Only nasty pig screwing white f@!Ks would complain about "tall" buildings in NYC!

Context this you prick.

65.

b. heights is WHITE folks.

Drinking a bit tonight?

66.

"I have spoken with hundreds of African-American residents of public housing about the Ratner proposal. The vast majority are opposed to the project, and they see Ratner as just another rich guy making promises.

This was an event choreographed by a billionaire to make it seem like African-Americans support him. It's the typical divide-and-conquer strategy that the press has swallowed hook, line and sinker."

Yep there are plenty of black leaders against this project or who have serious reservations. The ONLY politicians that are 100% for it are getting money from Ratner.
James is against it, Montgomery's against it (so ratner brought in Boyland to run against her) Batson is strongly opposed to it.
CB boards 2, 6 and 8 have all expressed outrage at being left out of the process or having the time to review it.

this is not about affordable housing ALL the condos are luxury units only some rentals are reduced rate. but here's the catch. Ratner has absolutely NO LEGAL OBLIGATION to offer affordable housing. NONE. He'll pay a few million to ACORN as 'fine' and consider it a cost of doing business. If you think otherwise, well you don't know his track record.

67.

Ratner gets 4 billion in loans a thirty year property tax break and 200 million from the state for only 30% affordable housing. only half of that will be affordable to people making under 50K. with all that money going to him and billion dollar profit you can build a lot of REAL low income housing. He's using the state's money to buy luxury condos.

68.

"I can only attribute those kinds of comments to a very poor understand of how the economy escpecially under the free market system works. Yes, the only reason any developer spends his time and effort on any project is because he wants to make money. That's is the essense of our free-market system."

umm brain teaser ratner is getting special subsidies from the state (four billion in below rate loans, two hundred million in direct payouts and the MTA is selling the land BELOW market value - 100 million below - think about that the next time they say they want to raise fares, using eminent domain to take other people's properties and businesses from them, getting a property tax break which means we'll pay for the infrastructure. Is that your idea of a free market?

69.

According to Forest City Ratner:

* If you or your family earn between $21,270 to $28,360/year 225 units would be set aside for you.
* If you or your family earn between $28,361 to $35,450/year 675 units would be set aside for you.
* The Brooklyn Area Median Income (AMI) is 35,000/year.
* That's 900 units (or 13%) out of a total 6,860 proposed units.
* If you or your family earn less than $21,270 there is no home for you in the proposed project.
* 84% of the units will NOT be affordable to families making less than $56,000/year.

There Is NO gurantee that ratner has to build ONE unit of affordable housing.

70.

divided along racial lines? wow I didn't know:
57th Assembly District:
Bill Batson opposes the project.
18th Senate District:
Velmanette Montgomery opposes the project.
Letitia James opposes the project.
11th Congressional District:
Chris Owens opposes the project.

and charles baron and bob law who also oppose it, were all white. wow news to me.

The only politicians who do support it are getting money from Ratner

71.

What would Malcolm X think about this?

72.

Malcolm X would use all means necessary to tell Ratner to get the hell out.

73.

Umm...by any means necessary?

74.

Stop the race bait B.S.
Ratner never gave a damn about us black people when he built Metrotech. He does not give a damn about the black people left in Fort Green,Prospect Heights and the rest of us living across the Atlantic Avenue in Atlantic Terminal. Ask those guys in Fort Green projects if they got jobs.Once again our people sold us out again. My neighbor calls Atlantic Center the ghetto mall, He said he was afraid of our children, thats why he made Atlantic Center mall ugly.
Doc No

75.

Malcolm X would get rid of Ratner by any means neccesary. He was a criminal and that's what criminals do...just like drug dealers in the projects.

Malcolm X was a phony, a hypocrite and a criminal that was elevated to the status of a god by Spike Lee (another fraud who couldn't direct a good movie to save his life).

Do not bring Malcolm X into this to try to bolster your arguements. It only means you will lose your arguement quicker.

Malcom X...I piss on his grave...

76.

Hi: For the record, Umar Jordan said "go back to Pleasantville" in response to a project opponent who'd preceded him who began his remarks by announcing that he lived in Pleasantville but held season tickets to the Nets. So it was not a reference to the Reese Witherspoon movie, just a dialogue. So to speak.

77.

Forget the hipster hate and whatever. I used to think that too until I realized that it's a tool used by the scum pols and developers to divide and conquer. Look at what Ratner has done with the Atlantic Yards debacle, he's basically set up the white folks who moved in the last few years as scapegoats for the working class blacks in the neighborhood desperate for what they think will be affordable housing and jobs (yeah right). In which case why doesn't Ratner agree to build the affordable housing and the Arena first. But he's not going to do that because it's all a big lie to shove a monsterous destructive soulless project down the throat of Brooklyn that's going to make him the king of his own fiefdom. And he's going to pocket in excess of a billion dollars in the process. With your tax dollars and the blessing of Bloomberg the Real Estate Bitch, Dan Doctor(jerk)off and Marty "let me give Richard Scarano an award" Markowitz (No joke, soon after Scarano was penalized for his illegal building practices Marty the clown made up for it with a "Brooklyn Icon" award). Is that gross? You better believe it. Scarano is responsible for the death of 3 workers on sites he's architected.

Anyhow this is all to say: Enough with the divisiveness. It's all a ruse used to weaken the community. What's needed is for people under 30 over 30, black white whatever to take back their neighborhoods and stop accepting this shit. Contact Bloomberg's office, Schumer, Assemblyman Lentol, Yassky, Markowitz, the Brooklyn Dept. of Buildings and HPD and let them know you are not happy with the rape of Brooklyn and you intend to hold them responsible.

So shut up already and do something. Have some pride for where you live.

Thx.

78.

Yvette Clark and Lew Fiddler get $ from Ratner?

When has Marty Markowitz accepted $ from Ratner?

How about Pataki, Bruno, Silver, Bloomberg?

Provide evidence, not accusations.

79.

anybody who claims the subway can absorb the additional ridership is INSANE!

go to Atlantic/Pacific and spend 10 minutes on each of the platforms throughout this mazelike station on a monday morning rush hour,

then navigate your way through each of the many exits that lead you all over from Hanson Place behind Target, to 4th Ave & Dean Street

dont forget the crazy molepeople friendly LIRR station.

now try to cross the street from each of these points and get an understanding of how traffic rolls around there

now imagine your station/platform with about 500 more riders per line/station at 8:30 AM

have a car, go there, park around the nieghborhood
see what its like to find a spot,

now honestly try that at Bedford L stop
and try that at Roosevelt Island and see exactly what adding additional ridership without increasing trainservice does...

good luck.

80.

Let me preface this by saying that I am a yuppie. I don't down lattes and jabber on my cell phone everywhere, but I am a young urban professional in the strict sense of the word. I lived in Park Slope for a year before I was priced out and now live in Carroll Gardens, and before that I was in college upstate.

The way my job takes me I will most likely not be staying in Brooklyn long.

Personally I can't wait to see Atlantic Yards get built, because that's about the time that I'll be moving on. And everyone will get what they deserve with the exception of the local residents who looked at the facts and tried to approach this project objectively and weigh what's best for the community.

I'm sure that everyone who needs jobs will get them with the 1,500 construction jobs that it calls for (that's what this projects' 15,000 construction jobs are if you split them up among the 10 years of construction, which FCR has, check on that...please).

And I'm sure the affordable housing for however many people will be great when it's done next decade (it is not the highest priority in the project, check on that...please).

Meanwhile, the luxury developments that have cropped into the surrounding neighborhoods like cancer will continue to spread, pricing people out of neighborhoods they have lived in for years as well as the creative class that dragged the neighborhoods out of the desolation they once were.

The huge subsidies from the state will come out of everyone's pocket rich or poor, while FCR makes an "unknown" amount of profit.

I'm sure the neighborhoods will be great places to live once you make them reflect into a wall of glass.

The MTA, which is universally recognized as the pinnacle of service throughout the country will surely be able to handle the issues introduced by thousands of more riders during rush hour with its vast budget.

And if all this garbage that I'm writing has any resemblance to a coherant point, reason, a shred of knowledge, perhaps, just perhaps you may go and seek FACTS, not everyone else's garbage, and form an enlightened opinion. But hey, FCR is the only developer in Brooklyn right? I mean a fair and balanced proposal process proced that.

81.

Wow...so much commentary.
But here's a point that all New Yorkers should remember.
The Atlantic Yards project has been allowed to bypass the democratic process that as Americans I thought we all embraced.

If Ratner truly believes in the power of his vision, then he should believe in it's ability to withstand review and input by various voices impacted by this project.

But I don't believe that's the case. And it doesn't matter -- that's what capitalist developers do. But people like Marty Markowitz, Charles Gargano, Georgo Pataki, Mayor Bloomberg should not be working overtime to help him bumrush a communities' concerns about a new development.

I hope that Atlantic Yards provides access to quality jobs, education and housing that doesn't smell like pee to a class of people who have been denied that access for so long but seeing examples of Ratner's implementation (Atlantic Terminal's inhospitable mall, MetroTech ghost town) -- I doubt it.

82.

"When has Marty Markowitz accepted $ from Ratner?

BrooklynPapers.com
Markowitz’s second term as borough president ends in 2010. ... because of his support of the [Bruce] Ratner [Atlantic Yards] project and other developers.
www.brooklynpapers.com/html/issues/_vol29/29_29/29_29marty.html

83.

"And it doesn't matter -- that's what capitalist developers do. "

Capitalist? This is anti-free market as you can get - special subsidies, special tax breaks, eminent domain. Nothing capitalist about it. Its about corruption.

It seems both voters and the newspapers are waking up to this- not just this project, but the widespread corruption especially between developers and politicians. When the condo market crashes, heads are going to roll

84.

glad to see that people are talking about the AY project. finally.

too bad nobody is listening, or cares. the heavy hand of state is going to plop this down whether brooklynites (of all colors) want it or not. THAT is the single most repulsive aspect of this project. the total, blatent disregard for the citizens. the ESDC management of the "public comment" event last week was evidence enough of that, as both the venue, timing, and details of the event conspired to keep regular (non affiliated) brooklynites from speaking their mind. it was front loaded with (subsidized) union and CBA signatory supporters. yes, they have a right to speak. certainly they do, but the stage management of the event was cynical and betrayed a contempt for the community that does damage to ALL new yorkers.

85.

Honestly it looks like a good use of the space and a boon for Brooklyn, in concept, though I think very possible to have been a bit insensitive in design. I studied architecture, I'm related to a famous arch/planner, and I'm white. I've been accused of all kinds of falsities by other oppressed people who think that because I'm white, I deserve negative attention for my assumed bank account, or that I don't deserve a public education. Still, I'm $140,000 in debt, don't own any real estate or stocks or anything, and I'm about to go into bankrupcy after the car I financed to commute to a job out in "pleasantville" turned out to be a "lemon." My ten years living in Brooklyn, Harlem, and Chinatown have beaten and battered me, literally, and I'm convinced it's always more about the individual people, the programs, and the whole package. Any free public amenities available are better than none, places like Riverbank State Park for example, Wow!. I just wish it was the center point of any development, one building or many. Either way, I don't know who's gonna rescue me from angry people and a $7.00/hr job. Arguements tend to be between people who already have money and are simply trying to control their piece. Race negated, what is there but human survival and human need for community and jobs and maybe a little place where you can sit down and rest if you aren't successful enough to afford to live close to it all. As usual there will be a small percentage of those people who need the affordable housing who get it. The facts remain, 1% of the population controls 90% of the wealth, right here in "America." And I owe them money! Yikes!

86.

Additionally, rent is just an oppressive mechanism, for the most part, on a life essential. We should all wise up. Even New York City should not be a place where %60 of residential units are rentals. We as a city should do as many public housing projects do when they convert to co-ops. Individual ownership is key. Individual responsability would extend into the community, no matter the size, if individual ownership of affordable housing, instead of say low or high income rentals, were predominant. Ratner, or whomever, should have to sell individual units up to everything but 20% lets say. Why do we allow for anything but. Otherwise you have people who don't give a shit or who are only there temporarily. Life is no fun if you have to move 20 times in 10 years as I have. Might be the reason for disconnect.

Humph!

87.

If you look at the language of Ratner's agreement for affordable housing, it clearly gives him the right to back out of his commitment should "market conditions change." Well, guess what folks, the conditions have changed already. Dream on, those of you who think affordable housing and jobs are on the way.

First, he will scale back the project, not out of respect for the look of the existing area, but because we are going into a housing slump. But second, the scaled-back version will include mostly market rate apts (perhaps luxury rentals now instead of condo), because he can't make his nut due to falling prices and rising construction costs. There will be very very few affordable apts in this new phase, if any at all.

And the slump means fewer jobs, in what, to begin with, was a teeny job pool anyway for area residents. Most of the real jobs on this project will be temporary construction jobs (and they won't be going to area residents, i'll tell you that much).

I hope the community activists like all the traffic, noise and true blight that comes from undersold buildings they'll get in exchange for a few hotdog vendor jobs at the stadium.