Stuy Town Follies: Rent Hikes and Secret Destruction Plans?

1.

Why do NYers feel that they have a "right" to cheap rent? If you want to keep your housing costs to a minimum, move to Kentucky.. If not, shut the f*** up and buy an apartment. Otherwise, you are at the mercy of the market.

2.

"Why do NYers feel that they have a "right" to cheap rent?"

Um, because the law says they do if certain qualifications are met. Whether you think it is right or wrong is a concern best directed to your local representative, not some RE blog.

3.

if you are in a non stablized apartment, which they are since it says so, then you have no right. I agree with #1. As for the other guy, he is just #2 in my book.

4.

FYI, $3000+ for a one-bedroon in the faux projects is not "market". i wouldn't even pay the $2200.

5.

I dont think NY's have a sense of entitlement to affordable rent, #1, just the ones who moved into middle and lower income housing, because thats what it was built for, its really more of a common sense issue then a right.

6.

Yeah and we know many NYers don't abuse the law, right cmiller? Gimmie a break. They are whining, costs are going up and space is at a premium in Manhattan. There are plenty of apartments in the Bronx which are affordable, why not live there? They say they don't want to live amongst teh savages, yet they make the same or less money and can only afford manhattan through archaic rent control.

7.

nowayman, I normally agree with you, but what the hell does that have to do with the insane rent increases? Those apply to the MARKET RATE tenants - the ones who already aren't getting cheap rent.

Additionally, as a resident of PCV, I would like to note that the tenant message boards at stpcvta.org have been down for several months now. No reason given. Think it might have anything to do with Tishman Speyer?

As for demolishing Stuy Town - doubt it. At least not for another 15 years or so. After most of the RS tenants are gone, then they'll knock it down.

8.

Noone who can afford a $3,000 a month one bedroom is going to rent in a glorified housing project. They are trying to price out the tenants to build luxury condos.

9.

you think $2200 is cheap?

10.

Umm, I guess for some people a 1 bedroom for $2200 is cheap, sounds like a ripoff to me. My 3-bedroom in Brooklyn costs less than that!

11.

Sorry #4 and #8, that's now the market rent. Tishman Speyer has no problem filling those apartments at that rate.

Everything market-rate south of 23rd is very expensive.

12.

It's not stabilized. They can ask whatever they want for the rent.

13.

On the first issue: Market rate means market rate. The owners can ask anything they think they can get. There's no mystery there. Why the surprise?

On the second issue: I doubt there are any plans to demolish these buildings because rent stabilized tennants are sprinkled throughout. There's no way they could clear an entire structure of these tennants before another decade or two have passed.

And if you are renting at market rate for two decades you need to see a financial planner...

14.

The point is that MetLife got huge tax breaks from the city in exchange for a commitment to build affordable housing. Whether you believe that was right or not, it was a promise and it didn't have an expiration date. The current owners assumed that commitment when they bought ST/PCV. If they to end it, charge market rates and/or gouge people who want to renew, they need to repay the city money. With a hell of a lot of compound interest.

15.

"Yeah and we know many NYers don't abuse the law, right cmiller?"

That's beside the point. Just because many people abuse a law doesn't mean the law is unjust. It may be unjust for other reasons, but widespread flouting is not one of them. The law entitles certain people to below market rent (not these people, obviously).

16.

After seeing how much they overpaid for these properties anyone who is surprised at the rent hikes is naive at best.

17.

I pay $3025 for a stuy town one bedroom. A person I work with just moved into another one bedroom for $3100. Stop by the leasing office every weekend and you will see plenty of young couples/singles waiting to view an apartment. The fact is the place has some big selling points.

1) No broker fee
2) Big apartments with new kitchen and bathroom.
3) Close to east village restaurants/bars.

$3000 is market rent for a one bedroom in stuy town.

18.

As someone who moved into one of 1BR apartments closest to avenue C one year ago (and on a low floor), there is NO WAY that anyone could get a $2,200 lease on a one BR market rate in Stuytown at that time last year. When we moved in, it was $2,500, We haven't gotten the renewal yet, but the absolute cheapest apartment on the lowest floor was renting for $2,400. We moved in May 1, 2006.

So, I say, I don't think this original commenter tells the truth!

Probably someone wanted to start a ridiculous discussion on the message boards cause they are home and bored!

19.

to all living in stuytown. Stuytown itself displaced over 10,000 families back in the 1940s who were forced out so that stuytown could be built. What goes around comes around.

20.

Looks like Met Life were negligent for allowing these apartments to rent so cheap for so long (the market rate ones, not the stabilized ones)...

And #14, come on... they got tax breaks, and they committed to whatever they committed to in contract. In law. Who cares if you or anyone else think they 'committed' to provide cheap housing...

21.

Stuytown's a dump and anyone who lives there is a schmuck. $3100 for that piece of shit? you're high.

22.

Are all people in the real estate business as obnoxious and hateful as most of those who post here?

23.

"Are all people in the real estate business as obnoxious and hateful as most of those who post here?"

In my experience, sadly, yes.

24.

I agree with whomever posted earlier regarding the demolition of the site, I do work in commercial real est consulting based here, it would take such an exorbitant amount of cash to be able to demolish it, that there would be no way to finance construction of new assets and buildings, simply put, whatever they could or would build would have to be priced like 10 square blocks of the plaza hotel...no absorbtion for something like that

25.

keep in mind rent includes cost of utilities including electric in pcstv

26.

i hope idiots paying $3100 for a 1br never discover brooklyn...


on the other hand, they could move from stuy-town to bed-stuy. that way it stays familiar and comfy...

27.

5 years my ass. Try 20.

28.

Williamsburg, anyone?

It is only 1 train stop away.

29.

TO #2 and others:

The increase in the above article relates to unregulated apartments. Rent increases to RS and RC apartments are of course regulated.

I also agree w/ 6. Stuy town has TONS of illegal subletters who get apartments from thier friends and who generally sublet to a certain kind of tenant.(ie white)so as not to attract any attention.

Why would a poor minority family not jump on an illegal $1000 sublet in ST? Because no one asked them. I hope they kick all those bigots out. ASAP.

30.

by a place, i did

31.

stuy town is a housing project, drop me off in the middle of stuy town or the middle of parkchester in the bronx and i wouldnt be able to tell the difference, i would gladly pay the brokers fee to live in a proper building in a proper neighborhood, rather then this dump, anyone who pays 3G's a month to live in the pj's is a fucking idiot

32.

buy a one bedroom in manhattan or brooklyn for 500-600K and you would be paying exactly the same amount

33.

It's true that ST/PCV resembled many "projects" built during that era. The difference is that ST/PCV remained comparatively upscale and genteel. The apartments are spacious by NYC standards, and there's a generous amount of open space. Those aparements have always been highly desirable. There is simply no plausible reason to demolish them, because they'll be money-spinners for many years to come.

34.

#29, it is not illegal to sublet a rent stabilized apartment, you just cannot sublet it for more than 10% above the regulated rent.

35.

well what if you really love bricks like i do and old farts with oxygen tanks and IV drips sitting on a bench outside your apartment? then you fork over 3 grand/mo to enjoy living amongst the living dead and see bricks everywhere.

36.

The demolition of Stuy town is definitely NOT going to happen in the next few decades. 1) The Replacement cost of the buildings is prohibitive even at the luxury rent level. 2) The area can't absorbed a huge swath of luxury highrises without killing demand throughout lower manhattan. 3)Rent stabilized units will make demolition nearly impossible without a lengthly and extremely costly legal process involving the State, the City and possibly the FEDs.

Forget it - not going to happen.

37.

I hope they tear those friggin ugly buildings down and reimplement some kind of street grid back to the area. What a shitty mess caused by urban planning in the 50's. I think people should stop bitchin about the high rents for market apartments. If it's too expensive, don't live there. You have a choice. As for the people living in the rent-stabilized apartments, they make living in Manhattan more expensive for the rest of us. It's not like I'm rich and can absorb the high rents easily. These people should have bought back when Manhattan was cheap. Straight up and down kid!!

38.

Would it be possible for new owner to force all rent controlled people to move into another building on same property if apartment is same size?

I am imagining them putting all the rent controlled people into a group of three-five buildings. tearing down the rest, building fancy condos on the empty lots.

And...nicknames for rent controlled buildings????

Maybe.....sty-town?

As they die off, they get more and more crammed into one building.

I imagine one building in the end with 100 + year olds just barely breathing...

39.

I really doubt that they are going to bulldoze the thing in 5 years. There would be too much backlash. Plus, I do really think that that would be way too many condos to try and sell at one time

40.

STown is crap.

You all are crazy for even discussing it this much.

I live in a 2 bedroom in the West Village on Morton St near Hudson and pay $3000.00.

People who are resourceful find a way to live 'reasonable' in Manhattan. People who aren't call themselves hipsters and move to Brooklyn.

41.

God the let them eat cake attitude of some of posters on this board is shocking. Is New York really this horrible? Or is is just the brokers?

42.

Much ado about nothing

43.

I totally agree with 37 (Kelly). It's the rent stabilization laws in NY that due to supply and demand pump up the prices of non-regulated rentals.

Is it fair that there are executives who boasts that they are living in a rent stabilized apt while others who are barely scrapping by cannot find affordable housing?

Not only do some of these who live in rent stabilized apts but some of them do own property out of state. Where's the justice?

Plus, who hears the stories that some of those who have been living in rent stabilized apts originally were squatting or illegally gotten into these apts.

Why is everyone complaining about rates when most wouldn't mind forking over $4 for a cup of coffee which costs more than their subway fare. I also guess that none of those complaining has traveled overseas where most living quarters are similar to studios here... Check the prices for that... Or you're going to complain to foreigners who will be your landlords in the future...

Get a life people... My parents were renting in the LES in the 70's for over $400 for a two bedroom railroad apt. That was market rates. For added amenities, there are drug addicts, prostitutes, and drunken unhired doormen.

FYI, I'm not in real estate but appreciate the strange laws outlined by corrupt politicians in the past.

Now, I know of people who do live in projects and the mgmt companies are wasting your and my tax does mismanaging them.

People, please speak to your local congressmen or governors...

44.

If coopers peter is lucky he/she too may live long
enough (though i doubt it b cause of the sarcasm) to
have an oxygen mask and droll.
People that find illness disgusting won't usually makeit long in this world,have another drink & another to douse that anger.

45.

41--the people you're referring to are usually not new yorkers of very long standing. the influx of same in the last 10 years or so has helped create the financial nightmare and cutthroat attitudes you see on display.

I think they must be pretty young and think ayn rand was really deep.

46.

Is it possible that they do a cosmetic upgrade to the building's exteriors and public spaces, replace elevators and entry ways, but keep all the units intact?

Also-- I propose that the owners of this blog do some sort of program that automatically deletes the phrase "fucking idiot," whenever someone writes it?

47.

The only affordable area of Manhattan is Harlem, where I live. C'mon up.

48.

Bend over.....give it to me baby..uh huh uh huh...give it to me baby, uh huh uh huh...uno dos tres,...

49.

Yes it is going to get knocked down. Start watching the DOB permits.

50.

#46 - why upgrade the facade? The buildings are a waste of space. Tear them down, rebuild the street grid, build some tall-ass buildings.

Also, I thought the 'fucking idiot' comment was funny. It's freedom of speech -- you may not enjoy the word, but it's just a word.

51.

#31, Parkchester is not a project; it's a middle-income rental development that was built at the same time as Stuy Town and Peter Cooper Village, by the same people.

#1, regardless of a "right" to cheap rent, it's been shown that places where rich, poor and middle-class can live near each other, and where rents don't shoot up 36% from one year to the next, are more stable communities and more pleasant to live in. Rent stabilization doesn't just benefit the renters.

52.

I understand everyone's position here. In fact, I live in Sty Town too. I just got my renewal in the past week and my rent is going up $350 a month for 1 bedroom. I'm planning on trying to get out to buy, but as most of you know, it's quite difficult to buy an apt in this market.

Second, I want people to imagine their own monthly payments going up 36% over night for the same place you've been living for years. How'd that feel?

Third, it'll be 25 years before they could kick the people the rent controlled tenants out, so I doubt the reason the rents are being jacked up is to level the buildings only to rebuild.

Finally, anyone who thinks Sty town is the projects has obviously never been inside it. It is quite nice.

-Ken

53.

"God the let them eat cake attitude of some of posters on this board is shocking."

Nobody is owed a Manhattan apartment sweetheart. If you told me you wanted a mansion next to Bill Gates in Medina, WA, I would tell you the same thing -- have some cake.

It's not like these people are being forced out of the city -- they're just being forced out of a highly desirable neighborhood.

And no, I'm not a broker, I'm just sick of subsidizing people in nicer apartments than I have.

54.

"I just got my renewal in the past week and my rent is going up $350 a month for 1 bedroom... I want people to imagine their own monthly payments going up 36% over night for the same place you've been living for years. How'd that feel?"

I would eat my young to pay $1350 for your 1 bedroom. Jesus, Ken, are you completely divorced from the reality of New York real estate?

55.

A demolition permit is not difficult to get and enables a building owner to vacate any and all tenants. Tenants will fight it, but the most it usually drags out on average is five years. It will probably be done in phases to allow the new buildings to sell units at the highest price possible. The most difficult or elderly tenants can also be moved to other buildings that will, over time, have vacant units. To deny that this is the strategy is to deny reality itself.

56.

Sorry assembleme, I don't pay 1350 for a 1 bedroom, I pay 2500 and it'll go up to 2850 in another couple months. So I guess our young are safe for now ;-)

And I get what you're saying about how they will slowly drain Sty town of the tenants. I do admit it's possible, but there would probably be a lot of political pressure preventing that. Especially with Gov. Sptitzers stance on rent control.

57.

that is 14% ken, not 36%.

58.

It will take Tishman Speyer atleast 10 years (more likely 15 years) to funnel out the Rent Stabilized tenants. Half the people commenting on this blog dont know their ass from their elbow when it comes to these issues. As a commercial real estate broker(not with Tishman Speyer) and former resident of a stuy town market rate apartment, hink residents hav etheir head in the clouds (especially the person that wrote the letter and whoever teardown is).
First of all, water and heat was cutoff more often this year then years past because the water and gas lines throughout the property since they became obsolete. There is no validity to the conspiracy theory of Tishman Speyer monitoring 311 complaints and then exacting revenge on the complaintants. Tishman Speyer is not this diabolical fiend that is out to get the one tenant in building 524 apt 4G. They are just looking to make a profit on their investment like any other landlord would. I think the tenant association bid was a joke and never would have followed through if its bid was the victor.
Whoever teardown is, as a matter of fact it is not as easy as you think to get a demolition permit especially in this case, in fact at this point would be near impossible for tishman speyer. When a building has rent regulation involved in its tenanments you cant demolish the building period.

59.

A coworker of mine has lived in Stuytown for years and his rent is going up from $2100 to $3000 this summer... He is a hardworking guy married guy with a middle managment position that has been priced out of manhattan in a snap. Now that he's looking out in brooklyn and is quickly finding out that he's priced out of williamsburg and most of the "convient" neighboorhoods their too. What good is served by our workforce getting pushed right out of the city so that millionaires and europeans can come in and snatch up our homes for pied e tier or glorified NYU dorms?

This market is insane... and if the pricing is not controled by rent regulation NYC will continue to suffer "brain drain" until it exists only as a financial center like Dubai.

if that is your idea of progress and urban development than you are f'ing crazy.

60.

And I think we need to take a second to look at the numbers...

at $3000 per month yearly rent is equal to $36,000
at a salary of $75,000 per year that is almost half of your pre tax income...

given the absurd NYC rule of 1/3 your income for rent (which leaves no room to save to purchase a place or establish security) the minimum income for these one bedroom units is $108,000 higher when you factor in income taxes...

subtracting the included utilities only shaves off $2500-$4000 per year depending on how you run your AC in the summer.

you'd have to be insane to pay that even at that income level.

61.

I'm a stuy town resident paying market rent in a 3br. the rent increase was about 8-10%. seems like the standard across the city. met life was not charging cheap rents to the market raters. based on my experience, i'm skeptical of the 40% rent increase on market claimed by this board.

62.

May 4, 3:10pm: fuck yeah. They should cut the streets back in and deed the original plots back to the descendants of the former owners and occupants. Make MetLife pay for it. Ridiculous, I know, but a cool fantasy.

63.

We have several friends (families) that live in stuy. I live in Flatiron (for now, moving out of state this summer). I also thought it was like the projects before. That is COMPLETELY false. Stuy Town is arguably the last place in Manhattan where children go outside to play catch and soccer and also walk around in relative safety. People literally know all the kid's names and who their parents are. It's a great great place on that level. We almost rented there, but thought the 3.4k+ rent for a low floor two bedroom was insane considering we have a 2 bedroom at 3,100 now. Our friends are all rent controlled (or is it stabilized?). Paying market rate for stuy seems a bit off since they charge lux rates, but don't have anything lux about them besides a somewhat decent size. In my opinion the thing that's worth the premium is the small town feel and ever present private security patrols. There really is nothing else like it downtown. If you're single or a young childless couple...there's no particular reason to be there. But given that close Brooklyn is just as pricey...there really aren't any good options left anymore. That's why we bought a big house out of state...our kid wants a backyard and space!

64.

Move to Philadelphia...cheap and good

65.

My wife and I lived in a market rate stuytown two bedroom for a couple of years. Our rent was 2550 and it was an absolute steal. You can cry all you want about honest hard working middle class folks being priced out of Manhattan but the bottom line is that if you rent, then you're subject to the vagaries of the market. Think 3700 is too much for a two bedroom in Manhattan? Buy or move out, period. Whining about it isn't going to affect the market. Voting with your feet and moving out of Manhattan isn't going to affect the market. The vacancy rate in Manhattan is so miniscule that if you don't pay 3700, someone else will. Sorry, but 3700 for a two bedroom in Manhattan is on the very low end of market. Don't believe me? Take a walk by the pcvst rental office on the weekends. Still don't believe me? Try to find a real two bedroom, with no broker fees, in an elevator building, with a new bathroom and kitchen, a responsive 24/7 maintenance and security staff, private park (including several playgrounds, courts, fountains, wifi and summer concerts), convenient cross town subway access to both the east and west side lines, including all utilities (so you can run those two big free air conditioning units all summer long for free), with market rate parking in your basement, in a desirable neighborhood in Manhattan for 3700. Yeah right. Also, while I'm sure that there are more then just a handful of elderly rent controlled tenants who would be forced to move out of New York City if they were to lose their rent controlled pcvst flats, many of the rent controlled units are occupied by descendants of the original tenants who are abusing the rent control laws and driving up market rates by limiting supply.

66.

As far as knocking down these buildings it wont happen for a long long time I have the feeling there would be several enviromental issues with them doing it. (This is a hypothesis on my part)

67.

It's sad it's only about money these days. Everyone has to remember it's the lower to middle classes that run this city and country. Without them, mostly everything would stand still.

Who's up for workers revolution?

nowayman...you sound bitter...sorry if you got f---ed somehow in the apt. game before but your comment is lame.

68.

I read through the whole blog, and I still don't get how so many of the RS apartments became market rate in Sty Town, unless the people living there were making over 100k+ and the rent goes above $2000.

All the apartments were originally RS, right? Doesn't the next tenant get a RS apt too? Isn't a building that has over 5 units automatically RS?

Is it because the LL put in the granite kitchens when the apartments became empty?

Please explain.

69.

"All the apartments were originally RS, right? Doesn't the next tenant get a RS apt too? Isn't a building that has over 5 units automatically RS?

Is it because the LL put in the granite kitchens when the apartments became empty?

Please explain."

The rent-stabilization ends when the rent-stabilized tenant moves out and the management rennovates the apartment and brings its value over $2000. Simple as that. After that, as a new tenants move in and rent the apartment at "market-rate" which means they are at the mercy of the management company and the fluctuations of the market (which I believe will NEVER go down, only up). When I first moved in (2002) the 1 bedroom in PCV apartment was actually slightly underpriced for the amount of space I had (and utilities). Things were great for the first 3 renewals of my lease (increases of maybe $75 a year), but last year I had a $300 increase and this year I have a $400. Even with those increases I find I am priced out of everything else that is as spacious or nice as my current apartment so I will deal with it, stay and pay the increase.

70.

dear #21 and 31 and anyone else who believes stuy town looks like a "dump",
clearly you've never been invited inside... we keep the exterior looking like a pj so people like you will stay away. maybe someday you'll get lucky and get invited upstairs.

71.

I would highly recommend to anyone paying these crazy rents to look at buying in Parkchester. The Bronx, in my opinion, is an excellent investment and, after moving from the Upper West Side shoebox to my own large, one bedroom lovely condo, I can vouch for what a great trade-off that is. Parkchester is improving everyday. Lovely grounds (playgrounds, greenspaces, waterfountain, etc.), a city-within-a-city feel, 20 minutes to the Upper East Side AND Metro North reportedly coming in soon. A five to ten minute bus ride to the Bronx Zoo, Bronx Botanical Garden, and City Island close by. Hardwood floors, high ceilings, good-size kitchens and baths with windows...and all for $100-120,000 for a one bedroom. At that price, I have been able to afford a second home out of state, all the while watching the equity in both homes grow!! For anyone skeptical about the Bronx, there is a huge marketing push to put this borough back on the map. Talk to all the newcomers who have moved up there (or other places in the Bronx) recently - there are almost no places left near the City to buy condos at these prices. Trust me - I looked for over a year!

72.

I can personally attest that PCVST has invested multi-million dollars in improvements to security this year in an ongoing implementation that will add force multiplication factors to an already great security team. In addition, millions are being spent just for landscaping around the property. Those factors and the comments I've seen by tenants should yield perspective on the "tearing stuy town down" theory. There's no arguing that rent is exorbitant here, but it is a tightly knit community which has proven an excellent place for families especially with young children. It is ideally located and it's getting better every day. It's so unfortunate that many people previously living here have been or will be displaced, but it's an outstanding opportunity for those who can afford it.